Time To Scrap Doubling Up?

[foamfence 2,917]

But the issue isn't doubling up per se. The issues could be reduced by better fixture planning and entirely avoided by going to fixed race nights.

The problem still occurs when fixtures have to be re-planned due to rain-offs etc. If the clubs don't want or can't have fixed race nights, they shouldn't be forced.

[THE DEAN MACHINE 4,771]

But the issue isn't doubling up per se. The issues could be reduced by better fixture planning and entirely avoided by going to fixed race nights.

yes it is , identity, credibility , it's a team sport ,I don't support my local team anymore because they are not my team they are someone else's

[alkadera 100]

Don't know if this would solve the rider shortage but how about 6 rider teams - 5 full time members and 1 reserve spot shared between 2 young GB riders from the league below who must ride on different nights in that league. Gives continuity of team and opportunities for young Brits. Not thought of the finer details though yet

[Owenbros 38]

Surely if you had a fixed (maybe 2) race nights for Premiership, then the Championship could race on the other nights, still doubling up but NO fixture clashes.

[PHILIPRISING 7,298]

Surely if you had a fixed (maybe 2) race nights for Premiership, then the Championship could race on the other nights, still doubling up but NO fixture clashes.

SEEMS to be the most popular proposition amongst promoters

[THE DEAN MACHINE 4,771]

SEEMS to be the most popular proposition amongst promoters

count me out then and many others cause I want team speedway with teams not the select sides made up of other teams , it's a joke and quite frankly an embarrassment to a once sensible sport Edited August 25, 2017 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[The White Knight 9,039]

count me out then and many others cause I want team speedway with teams not the select sides made up of other teams , it's a joke and quite frankly an embarrassment to a once sensible sport

When I went to Speedway, I wanted to see MY Team, MY Riders who I could identify with. I liked feeling part of the whole Team thing. Since that has, more or less, all gone from the Sport, what is left is a mere shadow of what Speedway used to be.

 

What the Promoters fail to grasp is that half of the pleasure of going to the Speedway was talking with your Riders, socialising with your Riders and you would follow your Team away, recognise Riders who would, if they saw you, give you a wave.

 

Nowadays when Riders come out on to the Track a lot (probably most) don't even look at the Crowd who have paid to come and see them, they just trudge towards their Bikes.

 

That is the way I see it anyway.

[enotian 562]

So you want to be able to identify with and support your own team, just not financially.

 

Bottom line is Pandora's box is open. A double up rider now has circa 70-80 meetings to earn from. You take that away and allow them to only ride for one team, that's basically halving their earning potential. What happens then? Double the riders pay rates? Pass that on to the supporter? Or riders retire further watering down the product? Not good outcomes.

 

Get rid of doubling up and the crowds flood back to pay the higher pay rates? Nice dream.

 

Plus we all want more competitive British riders and the additional track time can only help that. And it's not exactly a new idea. I seem to recall in the good old days the top National League riders would ride at reserve for another team in the British League.

 

Agreed the current situation is terrible but structured correctly (i.e. fixed race night for the top division and/or different format) the positives of doubling up could be retained whilst the constant guests and R/R negatives would be removed.

 

Going back just isn't an option so a new way has to be found.

[THE DEAN MACHINE 4,771]

So you want to be able to identify with and support your own team, just not financially.

 

Bottom line is Pandora's box is open. A double up rider now has circa 70-80 meetings to earn from. You take that away and allow them to only ride for one team, that's basically halving their earning potential. What happens then? Double the riders pay rates? Pass that on to the supporter? Or riders retire further watering down the product? Not good outcomes.

 

Get rid of doubling up and the crowds flood back to pay the higher pay rates? Nice dream.

 

Plus we all want more competitive British riders and the additional track time can only help that. And it's not exactly a new idea. I seem to recall in the good old days the top National League riders would ride at reserve for another team in the British League.

 

Agreed the current situation is terrible but structured correctly (i.e. fixed race night for the top division and/or different format) the positives of doubling up could be retained whilst the constant guests and R/R negatives would be removed.

 

Going back just isn't an option so a new way has to be found.

brilliant lets just carry on ignoring the team sport concept and think about the riders pockets , that's going to end one way and we are already 3/4 of the way there

brilliant lets just carry on ignoring the team sport concept and think about the riders pockets , that's going to end one way and we are already 3/4 of the way there, we not going back we are at the point where we barely have something to go back from , the days of british speedway as a professional sport are sadly all but gone ,yes its tough on the riders but we have no more money cause fans are not turning up in enough numbers

the sport has got to find itself again , takes 2 steps back to take a step forward , currently we a wondering from calamity to calamity and we don't know where we are heading or what we are but the I am alright jack attitude of some in the sport has to come to an end ,even those people can see we are in trouble , we have to find a sound footing as a sport and build from there , it may not sit well with some but the bottom is where we are and until we acknowledge that and address the basics we will never recover, you can use gimmicks and name changes all you like it will never change a thing ,get the basics right ,get the team ethic going again like it is in all other team sports and people will given time get behind their teams and as proven with a lot of sports the product on show doesn't need to be thrilling as the fans are happy as their team is winning and will happily return because they feel like it theirs

Edited August 25, 2017 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[alkadera 100]

Doubling up has been happening since the 70s albeit under different names. It's not a new concept. Guests have for a long time been a problem. White city 77 I think, Wolves 76? using season long guests. Teams using 40-50 guests a season. Teams changing riders has happened throughout.

 

There is too much doubling up now and it should be limited if it can't be got rid of but it's not exactly new.

[The White Knight 9,039]

So you want to be able to identify with and support your own team, just not financially.

 

Bottom line is Pandora's box is open. A double up rider now has circa 70-80 meetings to earn from. You take that away and allow them to only ride for one team, that's basically halving their earning potential. What happens then? Double the riders pay rates? Pass that on to the supporter? Or riders retire further watering down the product? Not good outcomes.

 

Get rid of doubling up and the crowds flood back to pay the higher pay rates? Nice dream.

 

Plus we all want more competitive British riders and the additional track time can only help that. And it's not exactly a new idea. I seem to recall in the good old days the top National League riders would ride at reserve for another team in the British League.

 

Agreed the current situation is terrible but structured correctly (i.e. fixed race night for the top division and/or different format) the positives of doubling up could be retained whilst the constant guests and R/R negatives would be removed.

 

Going back just isn't an option so a new way has to be found.

Great Post with which I almost totally agree enotian. I sadly can't argue with you. But as so so rightly say "Pandora's box is open" now. I don't even pretend to have the answers, but if Speedway wishes to continue a few realities have to be faced by the powers that be. At the moment they either do not recognize the problem or they don't know what to do about it. At the end of the day, The Dean Machine is right - people will support a Speedway TEAM - as long as that is what it is - a TEAM.

 

I support the England Cricket TEAM

 

I support Sunderland Football TEAM - you get my drift.

 

TEAM is the operative word - not a hotch potch of Riders with a Racejacket stuck on.

 

Some people may not like that - but it is true.

[enotian 562]

Great Post with which I almost totally agree enotian. I sadly can't argue with you. But as so so rightly say "Pandora's box is open" now. I don't even pretend to have the answers, but if Speedway wishes to continue a few realities have to be faced by the powers that be. At the moment they either do not recognize the problem or they don't know what to do about it. At the end of the day, The Dean Machine is right - people will support a Speedway TEAM - as long as that is what it is - a TEAM.

 

I support the England Cricket TEAM

 

I support Sunderland Football TEAM - you get my drift.

 

TEAM is the operative word - not a hotch potch of Riders with a Racejacket stuck on.

 

Some people may not like that - but it is true.

 

I also support Sunderland football TEAM but have absolutely no connection or affinity with the highly paid individuals who wear the shirt because the club offered them better terms than anyone else and will disappear as soon as a better offer comes along (granted some exceptions exist). Indeed a number of them play for another team as well as Sunderland, just not at the same time (loanees). I'll support Sunderland regardless of who pulls the shirt on (with the exception of Johnson, during which I had a time out for obvious reasons) because it's the club I've invested in since being a child. During which time there's been some highs unfortunately outweighed by lows but that's sport.

 

I would say your average speedway rider invests more into the club(s) they ride for than the majority of footballers. Doesn't mean I don't still love my football.

 

The decision point for going to a sporting event for me is will it be an entertaining contest. Football got its house in order years ago in terms of pitches and facilities and is reaping the rewards (although despite the pitches some of the standard of football played on them leaves a lot to be desired).

 

This is where the speedway authorities have let the sport down. Some of the tracks are just not conducive to producing entertaining racing. In some cases it's unfortunate because the bikes have evolved beyond the constraints of some of the British tracks but there appears to be a notion that entertainment = home win so tracks are prepared for home track advantage rather than to produce the best entertainment.

 

Add to this the fact that the majority now get to see (sometimes) top class entertainment in SGP or SWC the British product is mostly inferior in comparison. Get the on track fundamentals right and it really shouldn't matter that much who is riding for who.

 

All sport is now business so the economics can't be ignored. Speedway does not generate enough income to employ the riders full time. That's why they're self employed and paid per appearance so who can blame them for wanting to maximizing that.

 

Don't get me wrong I don't like doubling up it seems strange and guests are even worse for the integrity of the sport but giving the riders enough fixtures to earn a decent living is a necessary evil. And is Robert Lambert riding for Kings Lynn and Newcastle any different to him also riding for Masarna and Rybnik and a German team?

 

If the structure was right to ensure that, even with doubling up, a team always lines up with their declared seven (injuries permitting) and scratch selects are avoided would it matter that those riders also ride in another league? As long as they're never double booked and are available for each fixture.

 

And this isn't just prevalent in Speedway. There's now a T20 cricket merry-go-round of IPL, Big Bash, T20 Blast featuring a lot of similar faces and you'll soon see players signed to a county and a city franchise in the new T20 competition. If it improves the product nobody is bothered about monogamy anymore.

 

Without having paid too much attention to the Premiership this season apart from a couple of TV matches it actually looks like an interesting league with unpredictability and away wins (Leicester @ Belle Vue??? who'd have predicted that?) apart from Swindon walking away with it thanks to Musielak for Gappmaier/Grondal. Other than that the teams seem evenly matched with reserves able to compete with heat leaders. Clearly the Kings Lynn Farces need to get their house in order but in general it seems a competitive league at a decent standard, just a shame so many matches involve so many guests. Fixed race night would surely minimize that.

[PHILIPRISING 7,298]

When I went to Speedway, I wanted to see MY Team, MY Riders who I could identify with. I liked feeling part of the whole Team thing. Since that has, more or less, all gone from the Sport, what is left is a mere shadow of what Speedway used to be.

 

What the Promoters fail to grasp is that half of the pleasure of going to the Speedway was talking with your Riders, socialising with your Riders and you would follow your Team away, recognise Riders who would, if they saw you, give you a wave.

 

Nowadays when Riders come out on to the Track a lot (probably most) don't even look at the Crowd who have paid to come and see them, they just trudge towards their Bikes.

 

That is the way I see it anyway.

I'M with you on this one

[Gunner85 603]

There are 28 riders in the top league who are doubling with another team.

 

If it is scrapped where are the riders coming from to fill those gaps ?.....

 

Fixed nights is the way forward so there are no clashes

 

This is being considered by the BSPA but whether it happens is another story.

 

Personally fixed nights is the way forward...possibly 2 for the top tier and two for the second tier.

 

It may be possible to have one fixed night for the top tier if the logistics work out.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Gunner85

[THE DEAN MACHINE 4,771]

 

I also support Sunderland football TEAM but have absolutely no connection or affinity with the highly paid individuals who wear the shirt because the club offered them better terms than anyone else and will disappear as soon as a better offer comes along (granted some exceptions exist). Indeed a number of them play for another team as well as Sunderland, just not at the same time (loanees). I'll support Sunderland regardless of who pulls the shirt on (with the exception of Johnson, during which I had a time out for obvious reasons) because it's the club I've invested in since being a child. During which time there's been some highs unfortunately outweighed by lows but that's sport.

 

I would say your average speedway rider invests more into the club(s) they ride for than the majority of footballers. Doesn't mean I don't still love my football.

 

The decision point for going to a sporting event for me is will it be an entertaining contest. Football got its house in order years ago in terms of pitches and facilities and is reaping the rewards (although despite the pitches some of the standard of football played on them leaves a lot to be desired).

 

This is where the speedway authorities have let the sport down. Some of the tracks are just not conducive to producing entertaining racing. In some cases it's unfortunate because the bikes have evolved beyond the constraints of some of the British tracks but there appears to be a notion that entertainment = home win so tracks are prepared for home track advantage rather than to produce the best entertainment.

 

Add to this the fact that the majority now get to see (sometimes) top class entertainment in SGP or SWC the British product is mostly inferior in comparison. Get the on track fundamentals right and it really shouldn't matter that much who is riding for who.

 

All sport is now business so the economics can't be ignored. Speedway does not generate enough income to employ the riders full time. That's why they're self employed and paid per appearance so who can blame them for wanting to maximizing that.

 

Don't get me wrong I don't like doubling up it seems strange and guests are even worse for the integrity of the sport but giving the riders enough fixtures to earn a decent living is a necessary evil. And is Robert Lambert riding for Kings Lynn and Newcastle any different to him also riding for Masarna and Rybnik and a German team?

 

If the structure was right to ensure that, even with doubling up, a team always lines up with their declared seven (injuries permitting) and scratch selects are avoided would it matter that those riders also ride in another league? As long as they're never double booked and are available for each fixture.

 

And this isn't just prevalent in Speedway. There's now a T20 cricket merry-go-round of IPL, Big Bash, T20 Blast featuring a lot of similar faces and you'll soon see players signed to a county and a city franchise in the new T20 competition. If it improves the product nobody is bothered about monogamy anymore.

 

Without having paid too much attention to the Premiership this season apart from a couple of TV matches it actually looks like an interesting league with unpredictability and away wins (Leicester @ Belle Vue??? who'd have predicted that?) apart from Swindon walking away with it thanks to Musielak for Gappmaier/Grondal. Other than that the teams seem evenly matched with reserves able to compete with heat leaders. Clearly the Kings Lynn Farces need to get their house in order but in general it seems a competitive league at a decent standard, just a shame so many matches involve so many guests. Fixed race night would surely minimize that.

I do agree with a lot of this post but where I do disagree is it does matter who rides for who , look at the following that polish teams have , same product as us but they get the team concept , we went to leszno a few weeks ago for a league match , from the moment you step in the place you know your at leszno , all the fans wear the same colour leszno clothes and the bond between the fans and riders is there for all to see , we sat right by the start gate and when a leszno rider was off gate 4 the fans were all but jumping on his bike to get behind him , the only doubling up allowed is under 21 polish reserves and that's for a purpose to bring young poles on , they don't allow guests and quite frankly would riot if one were used , they are their riders and it does matter by a long stretch just like it does in football , a team following will cover up a lot of short comings that may be happen in the rest of the sport but for me it is the basic principle of any team sport and without it I just follow the GP and polish league even though I have a track 3 miles from my house and was brought up with that team I don't go