Gavan 5,050 Posted October 8, 2018 36 minutes ago, BWitcher said: I would have backed Nielsen, Ermolenko and Jonsson all to have finished above Havelock over a GP campaign. As for wildcards winning a World title.... As much as ive never taken to Havvy he can claim to have been the best in the world that year and was a deserving winner with only Jonsson likely to be close. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 8, 2018 17 minutes ago, iainb said: I watched Havvy in all of his qualifiers in 92 and he was easily the best in the world in 92 and it came as no surprise to me he won it I think he did... But they have been handing out wild cards for around 20 years now and that's the only one that springs to mind. I think they have got it the wrong way around, it should be 3 wildcards and more quali places I think you will find the 'wildcards' have outperformed the 'qualifiers' by some distance over the years. You seem surprised that 'wildcards' haven't had more success... why would they? The best riders are generally already in! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Gavan said: As much as ive never taken to Havvy he can claim to have been the best in the world that year and was a deserving winner with only Jonsson likely to be close. Except he wasn't. He was outperformed by both Jonsson and Ermolenko all season long, bar the big one of course. Jonsson for example won Swedish Final, 2nd in Nordic, won Semi Final (beating Havelock on his home track). Both Jonsson and Ermolenko were comfortably ahead domestically as well. Edited October 8, 2018 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iainb 5,020 Posted October 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, BWitcher said: I think you will find the 'wildcards' have outperformed the 'qualifiers' by some distance over the years. You seem surprised that 'wildcards' haven't had more success... why would they? The best riders are generally already in! I wouldn't say I'm surprised, more disappointed, no need for 5 (Inc meeting wildcard) 3 is enough to allow for injury, leaving 5 for quali 3 minutes ago, BWitcher said: He was outperformed by both Jonsson and Ermolenko all season long, bar the big one of course. Except when it mattered most Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martinmauger 584 Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) Don't agree that Muller winning in 1983 was a huge shock. On a German track he described as "like a mini longtrack", he admitted later he'd practiced on it all he wanted, appeared to supervise track grading and watering as the meeting progressed (!) and everyone knew he'd turn up with super-quick machinery, which he did: just the one GM such was his level of confidence. Granted his main area of interest was longtrack / grasstrack / sandtrack. He wasn't a contender on 'conventionial' speedway tracks but he was a more than handy speedway rider when he really wanted to be, he averaged 8.75 over 8 matches (I think it was) for Hull in 1976. Think he also stated the German authorities more or less forced him to ride speedway else he wouldn't be permitted to ride his preferred longtrack, etc. One off winner on a track suited to him; for sure. Shock winner at the time; not really. Well done to Woffy by the way.... Edited October 8, 2018 by martinmauger forgotten info 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 8, 2018 20 minutes ago, martinmauger said: Don't agree that Muller winning in 1983 was a huge shock. On a German track he described as "like a mini longtrack", he admitted later he'd practiced on it all he wanted, appeared to supervise track grading and watering as the meeting progressed (!) and everyone knew he'd turn up with super-quick machinery, which he did: just the one GM such was his level of confidence. Granted his main area of interest was longtrack / grasstrack / sandtrack. He wasn't a contender on 'conventionial' speedway tracks but he was a more than handy speedway rider when he really wanted to be, he averaged 8.75 over 8 matches (I think it was) for Hull in 1976. Think he also stated the German authorities more or less forced him to ride speedway else he wouldn't be permitted to ride his preferred longtrack, etc. One off winner on a track suited to him; for sure. Shock winner at the time; not really. Well done to Woffy by the way.... People are missing the point. In fact you are making the point made even stronger. A GP system eliminates everything you have just said above. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 8, 2018 25 minutes ago, iainb said: I wouldn't say I'm surprised, more disappointed, no need for 5 (Inc meeting wildcard) 3 is enough to allow for injury, leaving 5 for quali Except when it mattered most So, if wildcards perform better than qualifiers, why would you want more qualifiers and lower the standard of the competition? The system works just fine as it is. I already said 'except in the big one'. However, as we know, the big one was a heavily rain effected meeting that made it more of a lottery. That happens and you have to adapt and to his credit he did. Whether he'd have been able to have lived with the Jonsson, Ermolenko, Nielsen over a full GP series still remains very much in doubt. Personally I think he would have been in the mix but I think he'd have lost pts in the overseas rounds, Sweden for example. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tyler42 150 Posted October 8, 2018 1 hour ago, iainb said: Tell that to Darcy Ward you sick man! Don't call me a sick man because you don't agree with my point of view. Many riders have lost there life's as well. Does that make me a sick man as well. You don't know me so please refrain from name calling. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iainb 5,020 Posted October 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, BWitcher said: So, if wildcards perform better than qualifiers, why would you want more qualifiers and lower the standard of the competition? The system works just fine as it is. I already said 'except in the big one'. However, as we know, the big one was a heavily rain effected meeting that made it more of a lottery. That happens and you have to adapt and to his credit he did. Whether he'd have been able to have lived with the Jonsson, Ermolenko, Nielsen over a full GP series still remains very much in doubt. Personally I think he would have been in the mix but I think he'd have lost pts in the overseas rounds, Sweden for example. We'll never know about Havvy in a GP in 92, so we'll just have to go with the fact he won the championship. As for wildcard Vs qualifiers, personally I just think there are too many wildcards and it's to open to opinion, at least if you've qualified you've done it on merit 2 minutes ago, tyler42 said: Don't call me a sick man because you don't agree with my point of view. Many riders have lost there life's as well. Does that make me a sick man as well. You don't know me so please refrain from name calling. Comments like "nice little air fence" do not help your cause Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gemini 4,894 Posted October 8, 2018 1 hour ago, iainb said: Tell that to Darcy Ward you sick man! Wow! That comment is really uncalled for. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iainb 5,020 Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Gemini said: Wow! That comment is really uncalled for. His original post was implying that today's riders have it easy and back in the day the dangers in the sport were greater, not true, Darcy Ward the most talented rider I've ever seen now in a wheelchair in the era of air fences... I found his original comments most deplorable Edited October 8, 2018 by iainb Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tyler42 150 Posted October 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, iainb said: Comments like "nice little air fence" do not help your cause Sorry what cause. It was a point of view. If you think I'm being offending to anyone thats your point of view. The difference is, i have not in my post attacked you personally, So don't do it to me. Thank you 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gemini 4,894 Posted October 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, iainb said: His original post was implying that today's riders have it easy and back in the day the dangers in the sport were greater, not true, Darcy Ward the most talented rider I've ever seen now in a wheelchair in the era of air fences... I found his original comments most deplorable Still a way over the top reaction and an attack on the poster. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iainb 5,020 Posted October 8, 2018 Top infer modern day riders are less skillful because there's a nice little air fence is ridiculous Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tyler42 150 Posted October 8, 2018 1 hour ago, iainb said: I keep hearing that todays riders have so much more skill? It sure takes a lot of skill to hold the bike flat out on a slick track for 4 laps!. With a nice little air fence added for extra protection! Just look what happen at a recent GP when there is a bit of dirt on the track. They had there little riders meetings and demanded to have all the dirt scraped off. If they are so skilful, surely they can ride in any conditions? There is a thing called a throttle and it can go both ways! Where in my post do i say the sport was dangerous back in the day. Please post all of my post. Not the little bit you like. so that you can attack me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites