chunky 6,097 Posted October 5, 2019 6 hours ago, gustix said: However it has moved away from its original designation. The thread was initially designed for comparison in regard to British riders who actually won a world title. The thread title is British world champions ratings list. That's good, coming from the individual who not only asked Sidney to name his Top 20 riders of all-time here, but also had the audacity to introduce American boxers into the thread! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,097 Posted October 5, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, iris123 said: Mickthemuppet did compare Williams and Craven. He said Freddie beat PC far more often. That was when I noted PC was 8 years younger and a rising star at the time. For me wrong to do that , and even more so if mick had mainly for instance seen their clashes at Wembley rather that Belle Vue. All distorts the impression Sorry, forgot about that! As you say, though, that was totally meaningless and misleading because of the time period involved. Still, nobody has attempted a comparison based on overall performance... Edited October 5, 2019 by chunky Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,116 Posted October 5, 2019 23 minutes ago, chunky said: My point is that league racing is a totally different level to world championship. It is not simply a case of how many titles, but of other performances at the top level, such as world championship rostrums, performance in Inter-Continental Finals and European Finals (although the quality of those did vary greatly), and World Pairs. Of course, these are also intertwined with longevity and consistency. Yes, I take your point, but the problem here is that riders like Price and Williams didn't have the same opportunities as modern day riders like Woffinden, or even Collins, to ride in other top level events as there weren't any. One of the difficulties in comparing riders from different eras. Also the league in the late 40s and early 50s did contain all the world's top riders of the day, so, in a way, league averages were probably much more important in those days as a comparison between riders. And, in fact, my earlier post was only a comparison between Price and Williams and my attempt to explain why I would place Price above Williams. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,097 Posted October 5, 2019 8 minutes ago, norbold said: Yes, I take your point, but the problem here is that riders like Price and Williams didn't have the same opportunities as modern day riders like Woffinden, or even Collins, to ride in other top level events as there weren't any. One of the difficulties in comparing riders from different eras. Also the league in the late 40s and early 50s did contain all the world's top riders of the day, so, in a way, league averages were probably much more important in those days as a comparison between riders. And, in fact, my earlier post was only a comparison between Price and Williams and my attempt to explain why I would place Price above Williams. I totally get what you are saying, and as I said, I always appreciate reason and logic. The thing with Price, it wasn't just him... How many other riders could have developed into world-beaters had the war not intervened? You seem to be taking my first point a little to literally, though! There WERE events, just nothing like we have had since, and certainly not at a true international level. Having said that, there can be little doubt that virtually all of the world's best riders at that point were competing in the UK. So, even domestic meetings could be used here. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midland Red 2,383 Posted October 5, 2019 (edited) Those I’ve seen: 1. Peter Craven 2. Peter Collins 3. Michael Lee 4. Tai Woffinden 5. Mark Loram 6. Gary Havelock Wish the list was longer, but then I’d be even older than I am now If Jack Parker qualifies, I did see him ride at Hackney in 1978, so he would creep in at no.7 as he didn’t look that good Edited October 5, 2019 by Midland Red 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,116 Posted October 5, 2019 37 minutes ago, Midland Red said: If Jack Parker qualifies, I did see him ride at Hackney in 1978, so he would creep in at no.7 as he didn’t look that good He did beat Malcolm Simmons though! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,097 Posted October 5, 2019 I've beaten Paul Woods, Hughie Saunders, and Peter Tarrant - at darts... Does that count? Sorry gustix, I deviated; you can go back to your books about American boxers now... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucifer sam 3,953 Posted October 5, 2019 15 hours ago, chunky said: Interesting, Parker above Lee? That should provoke some discussion... I thought the discussion might be more on whether I'd actually placed Jack Parker high enough The winner of the sport's premier event in both 1934 and 1947 (including toppling the "unbeatable" Duggan in the '47 final). One of the top riders for a long, long time. Made the Match-Race Championship his own personal property for a number of years. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 5, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, chunky said: That's good, coming from the individual who not only asked Sidney to name his Top 20 riders of all-time here, but also had the audacity to introduce American boxers into the thread! What are you babbling about now? Can you refresh my memory on this happening please? 25 minutes ago, chunky said: Sorry gustix, I deviated; you can go back to your books about American boxers now... What books about American boxers. I have never been interested to any great extent in the sport. I cannot understand THE POINT you are making! Edited October 5, 2019 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OveFundinFan 4,143 Posted October 5, 2019 My mum and dad used to go on about how good Jack Parker was, often referring to how long he was match race champion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,097 Posted October 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said: My mum and dad used to go on about how good Jack Parker was, often referring to how long he was match race champion. It was just unfortunate that he was at his peak when there was no World Championship. Like Vic Duggan... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,116 Posted October 5, 2019 4 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said: My mum and dad used to go on about how good Jack Parker was, often referring to how long he was match race champion. Right from the very start of my involvement with speedway I was always interested in its history and I read up as much as I could and spoke to many "old timers", who had been going to speedway for years. Based on this, and on my own observations of the then current speedway scene, every now and then I used to produce my own Top 20 greatest riders list, which over the years I did it, which was most of the 1960s, changed every time I did it. However, the Top Four always stayed the same (though the order changed!) and they were Ove Fundin, Vic Duggan, Tom Farndon and Jack Parker. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,097 Posted October 5, 2019 6 minutes ago, gustix said: What are you babbling about now? Can you refresh my memory on this happening please? What books about American boxers. I have never been interested to any great extent in the sport. I cannot understand THE POINT you are making! You complained about people deviating from the thread title. However, YOU were the one who wanted to see Sidney's all-time (not British) Top 20 list - on this thread. YOU were the one who brought up the subject of books about American boxers - on this thread. I'm not babbling at all - just pointing out (yet not complaining) that you have been responsible for deviations on this thread - that YOU complained about. You still don't know who I am, or what I do, do you, John? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,116 Posted October 5, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, chunky said: It was just unfortunate that he was at his peak when there was no World Championship. Like Vic Duggan... A field of great speculation of course, who would have won the War Time championships. Vic Duggan, Jack Parker, Eric Langton, Cordy Milne, Tommy Price, Eric Chitty....all arguably would have been at their peak during that period. Edited October 5, 2019 by norbold 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, chunky said: You complained about people deviating from the thread title. However, YOU were the one who wanted to see Sidney's all-time (not British) Top 20 list - on this thread. YOU were the one who brought up the subject of books about American boxers - on this thread. I'm not babbling at all - just pointing out (yet not complaining) that you have been responsible for deviations on this thread - that YOU complained about. You still don't know who I am, or what I do, do you, John? I don't recall the comment I made to Sidney nor a reference to American boxing books. I have looked back through the many Posts on here and cannot seem to trace them. And correct - I have no idea who you are or what you do. Why should I want to know? TBH I regret ever starting this thread. I could use an ultimate solution - but will refrain from doing so! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites