Belle Vue v Peterborough 9th August

[Bagpuss 10,781]

46 minutes ago, mikebv said:

By "protecting" the RS the danger is you will build "flat track bullies" who get used to beating their peer group only, and also some teams will end up with riders well in advance of the average RS rider, so getting all the advantages of having him ride in protected heats..

Wasnt that why the last "system" tried failed?

Jordan Palin the other night showed a simple fact..

If you are good enough then you will compete, if you are not good enough then you wont...

That is sport..

The perfect obvious stepping stone scenario would be to only run the RS system in the 2nd Division, but as 90% of all 1st Division riders ride in it, many will be found just as wanting in that league too if not of the required capability..

However, again, that is sport..

And the aim of the RS scheme isn't dont forget to make "World Class Superstars", but it is in place to make "decent riders" who can hold down team places in the top two leagues, thus meaning less reliance on "journeymen foreign" riders, especially post Brexit..

I do get that but if for example an FTR had two 'protected' heats (one of which would have a second string in in anyway) and then two unrestricted ones I don't think any flat track bullying would occur. It's about getting the balance right. And without wanting to take away from Pailin's heat 13 win on Monday that does t happen nine times out of ten so as good a ride as it was I don't think it proves an awful lot in isolation. 

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

17 minutes ago, Bagpuss said:

I do get that but if for example an FTR had two 'protected' heats (one of which would have a second string in in anyway) and then two unrestricted ones I don't think any flat track bullying would occur. It's about getting the balance right. And without wanting to take away from Pailin's heat 13 win on Monday that does t happen nine times out of ten so as good a ride as it was I don't think it proves an awful lot in isolation. 

I do agree with all of this,  we all know Palin really enjoys riding the NSS  and he rides it very well.But what i did learn was that Jordan who has had plenty of lean nights in both leagues is really learning  quickly.More importantly he is still believing in his own ability  which is easier said than done.

[scoobydoo 2,254]

2 hours ago, Bagpuss said:

I think he makes valid general points, don't think on this occasion team or club bias comes into it. Hans is an anomaly in the Flint comment as riders of his class are rarely at reserve but I think the system does need tweaking a bit, FTR's should have four rides and should be in either heat 8, 12 or 14 and not just heat two and then two harder heats.

True they are actually very valid points of a seemingly rushed through idea , but the fact he writes about Palin specifically in his notes makes it look more of a dig at Peterborough's use of Palin  who must be so disadvantaged by getting his 3 rides that he can beat Bewley in the tougher heat 13 at BV . 

If theres two FTR's next season maybe go back to two reserve races  and any FTR from this season that has progressed average wise this season from being a reserve in either league can no longer be a FTR in either league  then theres more riders who can take advantage of the FTR system 

 

 

[scoobydoo 2,254]

1 hour ago, Fourentee said:

To be honest, it didn’t strike me as a partisan piece so much as airing a problem with rider development. I presume you’re pointing at the greater experience of Bacon and Bates (although Bacon came late to the sport, did he not?), and I certainly take that point. As for “he thinks it’s wrong (Peterborough’s team building)”, he specifically says he’s not criticising it!

Bacon and Bates had achieved an average that made them a championship second string so the advantage was more there results or experience so far, Bates was a weird decision given the fact he had a few years experience of league racing behind him, Bacon was expected by some to be at Peterborough but Pete Adams picked him for Wolves ,when someone says there not criticising something that really means the opposite .

There are flaws with the FTR system which need addressing , thats most likely because the system wasn't fully throught about before announcing its inclusion

[bigcatdiary 3,165]

9 minutes ago, scoobydoo said:

Bacon and Bates had achieved an average that made them a championship second string so the advantage was more there results or experience so far, Bates was a weird decision given the fact he had a few years experience of league racing behind him, Bacon was expected by some to be at Peterborough but Pete Adams picked him for Wolves ,when someone says there not criticising something that really means the opposite .

There are flaws with the FTR system which need addressing , thats most likely because the system wasn't fully throught about before announcing its inclusion

Bacon had too much experience and was too old to be classed as a rising star, Bates was a RS because someone thought he would clean up at reserve for Sheffield.

 

[Fourentee 987]

35 minutes ago, scoobydoo said:

Bacon and Bates had achieved an average that made them a championship second string so the advantage was more there results or experience so far, Bates was a weird decision given the fact he had a few years experience of league racing behind him, Bacon was expected by some to be at Peterborough but Pete Adams picked him for Wolves ,when someone says there not criticising something that really means the opposite .

There are flaws with the FTR system which need addressing , thats most likely because the system wasn't fully throught about before announcing its inclusion

Good points well made, but I still regard the piece as “whither the rising star programme?” rather than “ooh, those naughty Panthers have pulled a fast one”! 

[NeilWatson 1,988]

6 hours ago, bigcatdiary said:

As others have said Adams was quite happy to start this year with 28 year old Tom Bacon as a rising star, (which like Josh Bates was an utter disgrace) only to see Bacon retire and leaving Wolves with Flint.

As with a lot of new ideas the Rising Star plan was in principle a good idea but damaged by poor thought out rules, some of which are not in the public domain.

The fact that practically all of them now have effective GSA but these are yet to be published suggests some will take advantage as Rowe did when guesting for Bates at Sheffield recently.

They should all have been given assessed averages and had them included in a team building limit as per past seasons.

Many people on here wrote the Panthers off at the start of the season but the team with the help of an astute team manager has well exceeded expectations and this has clearly rattled some of the old guard who didn’t see it coming.

For the record I still see Wolves as favourites as their team is very good and has a serious home track advantage but this year has caused more than its fair share of interesting results and their could be more to come.

How did Anders Rowe take advantage? He’s on the RS list as a 4* rider, as is Josh Bates.

[bigcatdiary 3,165]

1 hour ago, NeilWatson said:

How did Anders Rowe take advantage? He’s on the RS list as a 4* rider, as is Josh Bates.

I meant Sheffield took advantage as Rowe had a GSA of 5.49 at the time.

I appreciate they are both 4* Rising Stars, but this was yet another example (if one was needed) where one rule contradicts another with Sheffield taking full advantage of having a rider at reserve who shouldn’t have been as his average was higher than other current Sheffield riders in the 1-5.