Andrew Edwards Book & Peter Collins

[fatface 2,554]

16 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

If you gave Tesco 16 years' service, entertained customers and made them come back for more... won a world title... lost a world title after shattering your leg on a sharp bit of trolley the store left in your way, needing 200 stitches, but didn’t claim compo... shattered your arm after fall on the soaking wet Tesco floor because you were forced to work in those conditions, and the injury meaning you couldn’t stack shelves as fast as before... then yes, shopping should be free.

Did you read my full post? Just scroll up and re read if not. It could not be clearer that PC deserves a free pass. 

My understanding is that is what exactly was offered, but refused on the grounds that every other Belle Vue rider ever gets the same treatment. 

Finally, yes, I probably do deserve better from Tesco's. Some of those trolley trains I steered are still talked of with great reverence. 

[waiheke1 4,295]

6 hours ago, moxey63 said:

If you gave Tesco 16 years' service, entertained customers and made them come back for more... won a world title... lost a world title after shattering your leg on a sharp bit of trolley the store left in your way, needing 200 stitches, but didn’t claim compo... shattered your arm after fall on the soaking wet Tesco floor because you were forced to work in those conditions, and the injury meaning you couldn’t stack shelves as fast as before... then yes, shopping should be free.

Yes. But PC WAS offerred free admission. My understanding is his grievance is he felt that ALL former riders should have been offerred the same (I.e  the response analogy offerred by falcace).

I don't believe anyone would disagree with genuine legends like PC and Mort being given lifetime free admission.

But should the same apply to say - and with no disrespect intended- Marc Crang or Andy Campbell or Bernie Collier?

[fatface 2,554]

20 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Yes. But PC WAS offerred free admission. My understanding is his grievance is he felt that ALL former riders should have been offerred the same (I.e  the response analogy offerred by falcace).

I don't believe anyone would disagree with genuine legends like PC and Mort being given lifetime free admission.

But should the same apply to say - and with no disrespect intended- Marc Crang or Andy Campbell or Bernie Collier?

Mark Crang... there's a bloke who was thrown in out of his depth. All due to the averages. I think the Aces paid around £5k for him... Mainly because he had a really low average. Only in speedway.... 

Edited December 14, 2021 by falcace

[Guest]

Seems harsh to tar Andy Campbell with the same brush as Bernie Collier and Mark Crang but I agree with the overall sentiment.

Whereas Collier and Crang were NL reserves at best, Campbell on his day was an NL heat leader and a BL second string.

We expected him to be our star signing back in 1988 but it didn’t quite work out that way.

[steve roberts 9,246]

2 hours ago, prodons said:

Seems harsh to tar Andy Campbell with the same brush as Bernie Collier and Mark Crang but I agree with the overall sentiment.

Whereas Collier and Crang were NL reserves at best, Campbell on his day was an NL heat leader and a BL second string.

We expected him to be our star signing back in 1988 but it didn’t quite work out that way.

If I recall he rather excelled on Indoor Circuits and won a few Telford events?

[Guest]

Yes you’re right Steve, I forgot about the indoor scene!

[fatface 2,554]

On 12/17/2021 at 7:33 PM, prodons said:

Seems harsh to tar Andy Campbell with the same brush as Bernie Collier and Mark Crang but I agree with the overall sentiment.

Whereas Collier and Crang were NL reserves at best, Campbell on his day was an NL heat leader and a BL second string.

We expected him to be our star signing back in 1988 but it didn’t quite work out that way.

Yep. Stuart Bamforth is remembered as the man who sold Hyde Road....there are more layers to the story than that of course. But you couldn't accuse him of not trying to win with Belle Vue. He spent big on Mark Courtney, Carl Blackbird, Andy Campbell and Paul Thorp in a short space of time....and they were all the right riders to buy - at that time, they were all really promising English riders. Thorpy worked out the best. Blackbird and Courtney could and should have done better. But Andy Campbell, you could tell he tried really hard, but he just wasn't cut out to make it at the higher level. 

[waiheke1 4,295]

On 12/18/2021 at 3:33 AM, prodons said:

Seems harsh to tar Andy Campbell with the same brush as Bernie Collier and Mark Crang but I agree with the overall sentiment.

Whereas Collier and Crang were NL reserves at best, Campbell on his day was an NL heat leader and a BL second string.

We expected him to be our star signing back in 1988 but it didn’t quite work out that way.

My point in including Andy Campbell wasn't to compare ability wise with Collier or Crang. If I included only the latter two however, it would seem I was basing eligibility only on ability/points contribution. Rather someone like Campbell, who rode only one season in Aces colours, should also imo not be entitled to free life time admittance to Belle Vue. 

[waiheke1 4,295]

11 hours ago, falcace said:

Yep. Stuart Bamforth is remembered as the man who sold Hyde Road....there are more layers to the story than that of course. But you couldn't accuse him of not trying to win with Belle Vue. He spent big on Mark Courtney, Carl Blackbird, Andy Campbell and Paul Thorp in a short space of time....and they were all the right riders to buy - at that time, they were all really promising English riders. Thorpy worked out the best. Blackbird and Courtney could and should have done better. But Andy Campbell, you could tell he tried really hard, but he just wasn't cut out to make it at the higher level. 

Mostly agreed, though not sure he bought the right riders - for example Tatum went to Coventry in 85 for roughly the same price as Campbell went to the Aces. Similarly Neil Evitts and Neil Collins could potentially have been picked up instead of Courtney for a similar fee, and on lower averages.

Thorp  was definitely a good signing, and as you say the pick of the bunch.

Courtney was very good round Hyde Rd, very disappointing away, but still averaged close to 8 in his one season. The issue iirc was attitude, certainly not ability, and he dropped a coupole more points off his average after leaving the Aces.

Blackbird also seemed a good signing, had a superb 1986, and was surprising that he didn't kick on. Was it a lack of investment in equipment?

Campbell I have to admit I'm biased against (as he replaces my all time favourite Ace), but it just never seemed a good signing. The Aces could have kept one of Ross/Courtney/P Carr, all of whom had vastly superior records round Hyde Rd, and at least the latter two seemed to have much more potential. It just never worked out - recall Bammy saying something like he thought he was signing a heat leader (pretty sure Campbell rode at number 1 in his first meetings, so he was obviously envisages as Larry's successor in that role) but instead he got a good reserve. 

[fatface 2,554]

24 minutes ago, waiheke1 said:

Mostly agreed, though not sure he bought the right riders - for example Tatum went to Coventry in 85 for roughly the same price as Campbell went to the Aces. Similarly Neil Evitts and Neil Collins could potentially have been picked up instead of Courtney for a similar fee, and on lower averages.

Thorp  was definitely a good signing, and as you say the pick of the bunch.

Courtney was very good round Hyde Rd, very disappointing away, but still averaged close to 8 in his one season. The issue iirc was attitude, certainly not ability, and he dropped a coupole more points off his average after leaving the Aces.

Blackbird also seemed a good signing, had a superb 1986, and was surprising that he didn't kick on. Was it a lack of investment in equipment?

Campbell I have to admit I'm biased against (as he replaces my all time favourite Ace), but it just never seemed a good signing. The Aces could have kept one of Ross/Courtney/P Carr, all of whom had vastly superior records round Hyde Rd, and at least the latter two seemed to have much more potential. It just never worked out - recall Bammy saying something like he thought he was signing a heat leader (pretty sure Campbell rode at number 1 in his first meetings, so he was obviously envisages as Larry's successor in that role) but instead he got a good reserve. 

I think both Courtney and Blackbird lacked the application...both very able though. Andy Campbell had a really good 1984 with Exeter, but it was a lot different being a big fish in a small pond than riding at no1 for the Aces. On paper all looked good signings....but didn't work out that way. The same year, Aces were in for Sam Ermolenko when he was out of British Speedway, but I think were put off by the terms. We got Eddie Ingels instead!  

[waiheke1 4,295]

4 hours ago, falcace said:

I think both Courtney and Blackbird lacked the application...both very able though. Andy Campbell had a really good 1984 with Exeter, but it was a lot different being a big fish in a small pond than riding at no1 for the Aces. On paper all looked good signings....but didn't work out that way. The same year, Aces were in for Sam Ermolenko when he was out of British Speedway, but I think were put off by the terms. We got Eddie Ingels instead!  

Was just going to mention that - of all the Americans, we signed the one who couldn't ride Hyde Rd....

How different it could have been had we signed Sam for the latter half of the 85 season, or for the 86 season, on a bargain average. 

[fatface 2,554]

25 minutes ago, waiheke1 said:

Was just going to mention that - of all the Americans, we signed the one who couldn't ride Hyde Rd....

How different it could have been had we signed Sam for the latter half of the 85 season, or for the 86 season, on a bargain average. 

Massive. In fact worth speculating that we would never have had the Morans. Sam would've been our spearhead through to the 90s. 

Same issue with Ingels as Campbell. Promising year at Newcastle in 1984...but again was in a small pond. Out of his depth at Belle Vue. Wonder what came of him? 

[waiheke1 4,295]

1 hour ago, falcace said:

Massive. In fact worth speculating that we would never have had the Morans. Sam would've been our spearhead through to the 90s. 

Same issue with Ingels as Campbell. Promising year at Newcastle in 1984...but again was in a small pond. Out of his depth at Belle Vue. Wonder what came of him? 

He went back to the states and won a few North california titles.

I think people often  under estimate the difference in strength between a top flight of 17 teams and a top flight of 11 teams, which was the shift from 84 to 85. It meant weaker heat leaders became second string quality, and second strings became reserve standard. 

Arguably that's what happenned to Courtney, Campbell and Ingels in 85. 

[fatface 2,554]

1 hour ago, waiheke1 said:

He went back to the states and won a few North california titles.

I think people often  under estimate the difference in strength between a top flight of 17 teams and a top flight of 11 teams, which was the shift from 84 to 85. It meant weaker heat leaders became second string quality, and second strings became reserve standard. 

Arguably that's what happenned to Courtney, Campbell and Ingels in 85. 

Courtney was 84 though. I think the big problem was that he didn't pull his weight in some narrow away losses. Really, Aces should have won the league that year, they were the strongest team. They were smashing teams at home all year. Didn't know Ingels had some success....good for him 

[lucifer sam 3,953]

40 minutes ago, falcace said:

Courtney was 84 though. I think the big problem was that he didn't pull his weight in some narrow away losses. Really, Aces should have won the league that year, they were the strongest team. They were smashing teams at home all year. Didn't know Ingels had some success....good for him 

To be fair to the 1984 Aces, they only dropped nine league points (three defeats and three draws) - but the problem was Ipswich only dropped eight!  Belle Vue's away form was pretty exceptional - 9 wins, 3 draws and 3 defeats in the BL. Plus a 100% home record. Most seasons that would have seen them walk the league.  A season of two incredible sides!

Edited December 20, 2021 by lucifer sam