Newcastle vs Edinburgh SGB Championship KO Cup 1st Rnd 1st Leg Sun 17 Apr 5.30pm

[enotian 562]

11 hours ago, Bellers101 said:

There are riders available such as Sedgeman, Kheler etc. There also seems to be a lack of interest in finding new talent from abroad. I partly blame that on the over abused guest system. It's far cheaper to use 'borrowed' riders that are already in this country than do the hard work to bring a new talent over. There will be foreign talents especially the younger riders wanting to ride over here.

As far as I am aware the Diamonds promoters don't have a sponsors license so even if they had found a potential newcomer they wouldn't be able to sign for the Diamonds.  They're restricted to riders who don't need any permits.  I could be wrong on this but that's my understanding.

There are plenty of young Danes for example who could do well at CL but they all choose Poland because that's where you need to be. So not interested in a Sunday track even if they didn't need permits.

The point is instead of young talent from abroad the 2nd tier should be providing opportunity to develop young British talent. Don't get me wrong there are plenty British youngsters in the current CL but no new ones this season. I think there's about 12 rising stars in the division already. It wouldn't have been a push to keep the original intention of 22. Plus restricting each team to one 8pt+ rider, on the basis there are only about 12 likely to be available, would have evened the sides out.

Regardless the bottom line is that the Diamonds need a c10.00 No1 to be anywhere near the points limit and competitive.  The other six will all more or less maintain their averages if they have a No1 to take the strain in heat 13 and 15.  Bringing in another two 6 pointers is not the answer. BWD will eventually get to about that level if his injury can be healed.

So suggestions of a c10.00 No1 on a postcard to Mr Grant of Brough Park please.

[phillipsr 2,057]

45 minutes ago, enotian said:

As far as I am aware the Diamonds promoters don't have a sponsors license so even if they had found a potential newcomer they wouldn't be able to sign for the Diamonds.  They're restricted to riders who don't need any permits.  I could be wrong on this but that's my understanding.

There are plenty of young Danes for example who could do well at CL but they all choose Poland because that's where you need to be. So not interested in a Sunday track even if they didn't need permits.

The point is instead of young talent from abroad the 2nd tier should be providing opportunity to develop young British talent. Don't get me wrong there are plenty British youngsters in the current CL but no new ones this season. I think there's about 12 rising stars in the division already. It wouldn't have been a push to keep the original intention of 22. Plus restricting each team to one 8pt+ rider, on the basis there are only about 12 likely to be available, would have evened the sides out.

Regardless the bottom line is that the Diamonds need a c10.00 No1 to be anywhere near the points limit and competitive.  The other six will all more or less maintain their averages if they have a No1 to take the strain in heat 13 and 15.  Bringing in another two 6 pointers is not the answer. BWD will eventually get to about that level if his injury can be healed.

So suggestions of a c10.00 No1 on a postcard to Mr Grant of Brough Park please.

Why should the rest of the league weaken because Newcastle put together a rubbish side?? The consistent weakening Of teams to the lowest denominator has been one of the biggest issues in the sport and is not a way to increase attendances   

[Jaizer 2,864]

1 hour ago, enotian said:

As far as I am aware the Diamonds promoters don't have a sponsors license so even if they had found a potential newcomer they wouldn't be able to sign for the Diamonds.  They're restricted to riders who don't need any permits.  I could be wrong on this but that's my understanding.

There are plenty of young Danes for example who could do well at CL but they all choose Poland because that's where you need to be. So not interested in a Sunday track even if they didn't need permits.

The point is instead of young talent from abroad the 2nd tier should be providing opportunity to develop young British talent. Don't get me wrong there are plenty British youngsters in the current CL but no new ones this season. I think there's about 12 rising stars in the division already. It wouldn't have been a push to keep the original intention of 22. Plus restricting each team to one 8pt+ rider, on the basis there are only about 12 likely to be available, would have evened the sides out.

Regardless the bottom line is that the Diamonds need a c10.00 No1 to be anywhere near the points limit and competitive.  The other six will all more or less maintain their averages if they have a No1 to take the strain in heat 13 and 15.  Bringing in another two 6 pointers is not the answer. BWD will eventually get to about that level if his injury can be healed.

So suggestions of a c10.00 No1 on a postcard to Mr Grant of Brough Park please.

Wouldn't bwd and Congreve need permits?

[enotian 562]

32 minutes ago, phillipsr said:

Why should the rest of the league weaken because Newcastle put together a rubbish side?? The consistent weakening Of teams to the lowest denominator has been one of the biggest issues in the sport and is not a way to increase attendances   

To make the product better. Especially if you're wanting to sell streaming to neutrals.  Also to create rider supply in excess of demand which will reduce costs.

Your turn to advise why the league should continue as is despite the evidence (ie track closures, falling attendances) that it isnt working.

This isn't about Newcastle who clearly have made mistakes and can't afford to run at this level.  It's about how the sport in the country is unsustainable at present. Eventually more clubs will fold (that's the trend) and the riders demands will increase until eventually all but those prepared to subsidise clubs will cease to exist.

The BSPL know this is a problem.  It's why they introduced the rising star scheme to develop more supply of riders.  They didn't resolve that issue in one season.  

[crescent girl 1,907]

23 minutes ago, Jaizer said:

Wouldn't bwd and Congreve need permits?

Bradley probly doesnt, as he was in National League when he first came over.  He'll have some degree of patriality.  If George Congreve is also of British stock and can ride for The Geezers without a permit, might he be found an NDL club to boost his track-time, and confidence, as he battles to make his way up the speedway ladder?

[Jaizer 2,864]

1 minute ago, crescent girl said:

Bradley probly doesnt, as he was in National League when he first came over.  He'll have some degree of patriality.  If George Congreve is also of British stock and can ride for The Geezers without a permit, might he be found an NDL club to boost his track-time, and confidence, as he battles to make his way up the speedway ladder?

That he came in on a 4 suggested to me he didn't have that? Wouldn't he been a 2 like young Connor?

But definitely if he's eligible for NDL he should be desperate to get a team place

[enotian 562]

18 minutes ago, Jaizer said:

Wouldn't bwd and Congreve need permits?

BWD no because he'd previously rode here and may have a British passport, having rode in the National League way back, although I think there's some debate about that.  I understand Congreve has a British passport.

Again my information maybe out of date on this but I think new promoters have to wait over one year before they can apply for a license.  It's why Pearson is a Belle Vue asset and loaned out to Birmingham. Despite never having ridden for the Aces. A bit of sensible rule bending there.

Regardless of being able to acquire work permit riders or not, they're all signed to ride in Poland at the weekend anyway. So still waiting for valid suggestions of the No1 who would be available to ride for the Diamonds.

Absolutely crazy that British speedway has just foregone operating on what is one of the key days of the week for leisure activities (including streaming audiences) because they can't agree a structure which would allow this to happen.

[Jaizer 2,864]

10 minutes ago, enotian said:

BWD no because he'd previously rode here and may have a British passport, having rode in the National League way back, although I think there's some debate about that.  I understand Congreve has a British passport.

Again my information maybe out of date on this but I think new promoters have to wait over one year before they can apply for a license.  It's why Pearson is a Belle Vue asset and loaned out to Birmingham. Despite never having ridden for the Aces. A bit of sensible rule bending there.

Regardless of being able to acquire work permit riders or not, they're all signed to ride in Poland at the weekend anyway. So still waiting for valid suggestions of the No1 who would be available to ride for the Diamonds.

Absolutely crazy that British speedway has just foregone operating on what is one of the key days of the week for leisure activities (including streaming audiences) because they can't agree a structure which would allow this to happen.

Yeah was what I was thinking Newcastle if unable to apply themselves get a premier team or a Poole/ Glasgow take the asset responsibility. Obviously not ideal but might be only alternative? Were the Czechs in 2020 side signed before Brexit rules came into place?

[phillipsr 2,057]

31 minutes ago, enotian said:

To make the product better. Especially if you're wanting to sell streaming to neutrals.  Also to create rider supply in excess of demand which will reduce costs.

Your turn to advise why the league should continue as is despite the evidence (ie track closures, falling attendances) that it isnt working.

This isn't about Newcastle who clearly have made mistakes and can't afford to run at this level.  It's about how the sport in the country is unsustainable at present. Eventually more clubs will fold (that's the trend) and the riders demands will increase until eventually all but those prepared to subsidise clubs will cease to exist.

The BSPL know this is a problem.  It's why they introduced the rising star scheme to develop more supply of riders.  They didn't resolve that issue in one season.  

How does reducing the quality make the product better? Will the costs come down to match this reduction? Answer is it wont so you will be getting even less value for money than now and its already pretty awful value for money!!! I dont know what the answer is but im certain it isn't this 

[ch958 2,395]

1 hour ago, phillipsr said:

Why should the rest of the league weaken because Newcastle put together a rubbish side?? The consistent weakening Of teams to the lowest denominator has been one of the biggest issues in the sport and is not a way to increase attendances   

because a league needs teams, need more not fewer

[enotian 562]

9 minutes ago, Jaizer said:

Yeah was what I was thinking Newcastle if unable to apply themselves get a premier team or a Poole/ Glasgow take the asset responsibility. Obviously not ideal but might be only alternative? Were the Czechs in 2020 side signed before Brexit rules came into place?

Thats correct. They were permit free at that point and would have been able to ride permit free thereafter had they ridden in 2020.

[Lord Skid 425]

1 hour ago, Jaizer said:

Wouldn't bwd and Congreve need permits?

They were doing a gofundme for $16,000 to cover visas !!! according to their social media.

[phillipsr 2,057]

31 minutes ago, ch958 said:

because a league needs teams, need more not fewer

So you more weaker teams? Less value for money? 

[enotian 562]

6 minutes ago, phillipsr said:

How does reducing the quality make the product better? Will the costs come down to match this reduction? Answer is it wont so you will be getting even less value for money than now and its already pretty awful value for money!!! I dont know what the answer is but im certain it isn't this 

Depends on the definition of quality I suppose.  I would say a quality product is two evenly matched teams facing each other on a fairly prepared race track such that any result is possible. Certainly a wide disparity in standard between the riders isn't the answer. I've posted in the Eastbourne thread what I think the standard of the 2nd tier should be. Yes the riders would be less skilled but would the entertainment be less if any ride was cable of beating any other and the racing and match scores were close? That lower cost product could be offered to supporters at a reduced entry fee, important in these times.

What isn't quality are fixtures in which one team has absolutely no chance of getting a result. In the past there were always lower limits a team had to exceed. Indeed I believe Workington and Scunthorpe were expelled from the old 2nd division for not being able to field sides of sufficient strength. Now the answer is probably to expel the Diamonds but that's just another lost venue. Or not allow Oxford to join, equally unappealing.  It all could have been avoided this season by restricting teams to one rider over 8pts knowing they are in short supply. I think it would only have effected 2 or 3 of this seasons line ups and meant the likes of Berwick, Scunthorpe and Newcastle could have fielded more competitive teams.

By generating a situation whereby there are more riders than team places available changes the negotiating dynamic.  Ultimately the richest/better run teams get the best riders, deservedly so, but if a promoter is prepared to wait the riders without a place must then decide if they want to accept reduced terms or not ride.  It's like people who go to supermarkets late at night hoping to get some price reductions because the supply has exceeded demand and the super market has to decide if it's prepared to sell for less or scrap the goods.  Probably happening with Easter eggs today.

[enotian 562]

6 minutes ago, phillipsr said:

So you more weaker teams? Less value for money? 

weaker teams doesn't equate to less vfm.

reduced entertainment does. you can argue that lower standard riders equal less entertainment and that would be a valid opinion but not necessarily shared by everyone. I'm watching the Polish Golden Helmet meeting now with the best Poland has to offer and it's a decent meeting but not a massive amount of passing unless Zmarzlik misses the gate.

Most of the reasons why supporters have walked away from the sport include lack of variety i.e. less teams, and doubling up i.e. not enough riders. And where are we heading....   even less teams and even less riders. The trajectory is clear.

The PJL might put a few more youngsters in the shop window but if CL clubs aren't going to give them opportunities (like this season) what's the point.