norbold

When you look at that abundance of top British names, Sidney, all riding at the same time, it makes you weep at the "talent" we have these days!

I agree about Max Grosskreutz. I'm really not sure why he decided to retire at the end of 1936. His announcement came as a complete shock to the speedway world, coming as it did soon after he defeated Lionel Van Praag (newly crowned World Champion) in a match race. Harringay offered Belle Vue a then record transfer fee of £7000 for his services but Grosskreutz said his riding days were over and he wanted to go into management, which he did, of course, at Norwich. Though, as it turned out, his riding days weren't quite over. At Norwich, not only did he take over as a manager, but he laid a new cinder track and took over as chief coach and mechanic as well as manager and then built all the team's bikes! I've got all the average scores from Peter Jackson's excellent series of "Speedway Archives" which has the scores (and scorers) of every National League (Division One) match plus complete scores and averages for every rider who rode. I have volumes 1933-1957.. I almost agree about Sjosten, Sydney. I do rate him very highly but just not enough to think he was quite in the same class as the likes of Fundin, Briggo, Knutson, Craven, Mauger, Still two 3rd places can't be bad!

There were some truly great Belle Vue riders before the War. In a five year run from 1934-1938, they never had less than three riders in the top 10 averages. 1934: Eric Langton (2nd), Bill Kitchen (7th), Joe Abbott (9th) 1935: Max Grosskreutz (4th), Bill Kitchen (5th), Eric langton (6th) 1936: Max Grosskreutz (2nd), Eric Langton (6th), Joe Abbott (7th), Bill Kitchen (8th) 1937: Eric Langton (3rd), Bill Kitchen (5th), Joe Abbott (7th) 1938: Bill Kitchen (5th), Frank Varey (7th), Eric Langton (10th) No other team achieved that record even once during that period! I don't think I can really answer that as I have only ever been to Belle Vue once (shame!), so can't really say how Ron Johnston and Chris Morton might have compared. The reason I mentioned Ron Johnston though comes back again to my New Cross experience. The first time I saw Belle Vue there, Ron Johnston scored an 18 point maximum compared to Peter Craven's 13. He then outscored Craven every time I saw them both at New Cross. In addition, when I wrote my book, "Speedway's Classic Meetings", I featured the Norwich v. Belle Vue Britannia Shield Final 2nd Leg held at Norwich in 1957. Once again it was Johnston who proved the match winner for Belle Vue, scoring a 15 point maximum to Craven's 13. This included Johnston beating Ove Fundin on Fundin's own track of course, while Craven lost to him (and Aub Lawson). In addition to that, as OveFundinFan says, he came 5th in the World Final in my first year of speedway. So right from the beginning, I have had a very favourable impression of Ron Johnston as an outstanding rider - even better than Peter Craven in the matches I personally witnessed or studied, so I was just interested really in a Belle Vue fan's view of him.

Yes, I know he wasn't quite in the same class, but I meant as a performer on his home track. OveFundinFan was talking to me! There you go, that's what I meant. Thanks BL.

Out of interest, where would you place Ron Johnston in all this? There are also a number of pre-War riders of course like Eric Langton and Max Grosskreutz

Funnily enough, that's just reminded me of when Ove Fundin smashed the New Cross track record in 1960, when beating Briggo in the Golden Helmet. He beat the old track record in both races. Not only did he smash the track record but he also smashed Briggo! This record also stood till New Cross closed in 1963. Finally, just to put all this in the context of my experience, the first meeting I ever went to was New Cross v. Norwich. Fundin scored an 18 point maximum and was just unstoppable, in a class of his own. I guess that has coloured my views ever since! Plus I've known him personally for about the last 15 years and he's a top bloke!

Of course, Rob, we will never know and it is all open to speculation. I am to some extent going by my own memory of the period. I was a little surprised at the time when Knutson didn't win the 1964 World title as I think he had his best years in 64 and 65. I know Briggo had had two good years back in 1957 and 58, but to me he seemed to take a slight dip after that but came back even stronger in the 64-67 period. I think my view of Peter Craven may be somewhat coloured by his performances at New Cross as he never seemed to me to really get to grips with the track and was always behind the likes of Fundin and Ronnie Moore at the Frying Pan. Though, of course, probably Briggo's worst year was the year he actually rode for New Cross as he didn't really like it either - too small! However, I was able to see Briggo at West Ham later on a track much more to his liking, but sadly, by the time West Ham opened, Craven was no longer with us. All very subjective I suppose.

Who knows indeed, Sydney. Personally, though, I don't think he would have won any more. Ove 63, Briggo 64 and 66, Bjorn 65, frankly couldn't see him beating any of those. Maybe 67 might have been his one chance as we then moved into the Mauger years. It would be interesting to know what the Norwich scores were.

From my memory of those years I would go along with that, BL. The dedicated Ove Fundin fan and great speedway statistician and historian, the late Keith Farman, compiled a complete record of every race Ove had ever ridden in this country. He found that Ove Fundin beat the other Big Four more times than they beat him, but that of those, Peter Craven beat him more times than any of the others.

Indeed he did. This could go on for some time. Perhaps people should be more specific with their questions!

Jack Milne also never won a GP but became world champion.

Lionel Van Praag never won a GP but became World Champion.

I do agree with you really, Rob, that Ove would most likely have made a clean sweep of it from 1956 - 1963; it;s just that it seems such a statistical unlikelihood that I threw in a couple of years where he might not have won it! I started going to speedway in 1960 and my memory of the early 60s is that Ove was so dominant you expected him to win everything - though of course he didn't! But over a season.... If he was like that from 1956-59, which statistics and memories seem to show he was, then 1956-63 it is. There is one other rider to mention in the latter part of this period though and that is Bjorn Knutson. He was notorious for being nervous on World Final night; maybe over a season he might have done better? Certainly I think he could have won the World Title in 1964 in a Grand Prix style event, thereby removing one of Briggo's titles. I also agree that 1955 was most likely to have been Moore or Young.

It's normally the last Sunday in October.

Ove Fundin is an interesting one. I think he could well have won every year from 1956 to 1963, though Briggo would have been a good bet maybe for 1958. Similarly Peter Craven for 1962. He would almost certainly not have won in 1967. So he actually won five, but could have won eight on the trot, though two doubtful, making six more likely, so, yes, one more than he did win at least.

I hate to be too pedantic, but Brian Crutcher retired in 1960 in the same week that I saw my first meeting. I thought it was something I'd done!

Ooops sorry, yes, compost, I missed that before. July 3rd is a Midlands v. South Cup: Plymouth 41 Southampton 54 in Stenners. Incidentally, moxey, where did you get North v. South Cup from as it seems to be Midlands v. South Cup? Is that a mistake on the Speedway Researcher site or is there other evidence for it being called that?

According to Stenners, it was called the Midlands v. South Cup. The match on 15 October was a "home" cup tie for Eastbourne but was raced at Exeter. They had raced their last match at Arlington on 4 October, their last league match against Cradley Heath. Charlie Dugard was losing money on the venue and moved operations to Hastings in 1948. I guess he decided to cut his losses once the league season was done. 15 October was a Wednesday. I can't see any record of a Plymouth v. Southampton Cup match in Stenners. They raced three times, two league matches and one challenge.

There was a thread on this a few years ago. I think it came to a definitive conclusion. Perhaps a little research back in Speedway Forum archives might help. Here it is: http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=39407&hl=travelled

Yes, that's why I added Ove Fundin!

I think Ove Fundin should have won more world titles.....

One rider whose results didn't quite match his ability I always thought was Reidar Eide. He always rode West Ham really well and beat some of the best there. He was usually well into the 9/10 point averages but only made one World Final and only finished thirteenth in that.

Good shout, Daytripper. Couldn' t agree more.

Except that Bluey Wilkinson did win the World Championship..... Just to be helpful, Sidney...: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tom-Farndon-Greatest-Speedway-Rider/dp/0752451405?ie=UTF8&ref_=asap_bc

Savalas Clouting, Eddie Kennett. Not sure I agree about Sverre Harrfeldt, chr. He was, of course, a brilliant rider, especially round Custome House, but I was pleasantly surprised when he made no. 2 in the world. I don't think he was quite as good as the likes of Fundin and Briggo. I agree about Gote Nordin though. He did have the real potential to win the World Championship.