Bleeds Pirate Blue

Speedway is a team sport currently based around rider averages. If the BSPA keep the EDR system, and allow Newman and Ellis to ride in the Elite League on converted Premier League averages (the current system), then it is likely they would be reserves. Are you being deliberately ignorant, or trolling me here? Newman and/or Ellis would be fine at second string, I agree, but if Poole can use them at reserve, why wouldn't they? It bears zero reflection on their ambition as riders, it's purely a mechanic of the team building process.

Well, if the BSPA are setting the league's rules with the main purpose being to prevent Poole having Newman and Ellis at reserve is, to my mind, an incredibly short-sighted strategy. Newman and Ellis have been two of the better success stories of the EDL system (and their success has not been dramatic!), so your suggestion is more about being anti-Poole than pro-British Speedway. Currently Elite League speedway has numerous critical issues - the race format being the primary one, which has in turn created the issue with riders on false averages. I'd suggest the best way to remedy this situation is to find a race format that doesn't create such a gulf between the reserves and rest of the team with protected heats, and switch to a rider grading system for a season so everyone can achieve more representative averages.

You have to be joking re: Batchelor!! Can't see Poole chasing Harris either, despite an attractive average. I'd have thought that Ford/Middlo will be looking for younger riders for the team.

I don't think it's a decision that Kyle gets to make? Surely if Poole build a team, and the EDL system continues, which means Newman gets a 3.16 average, he'd likely be a reserve. That's not due to any lack of ambition of Kyle's.... As for the rest of the Pirates next season, I'd want to see KK at Poole, Kurtz should be back, and Jack Holder will likely be given a spot too. Ellis and Newman both deserve to be back, but it will all depend on the rules and averages they are given. Plenty of rumours that Milik will be returning. I'd have no problems with Chris Holder being back as well, so that makes: Chris Holder KK Milik Kurtz Jack Holder Newman Ellis

Congrats to Kyle for his excellent performances in both legs of the semi-final. He's had a tough year and he was superb in the two biggest matches of the season for us. Great to see a local lad getting it done on track for the Pirates. Not sure if he'll be back next year unless we do get to use his PL average. I'm tempted to say he deserves a place in the starting lineup regardless based on his commitment on track last night. And finally, it was great to see him produce those performances when several forum trolls were knocking him and suggesting Poole should replace him, or fiddle an injury to get him out the side.

Poor decision from the ref excluding Ellis. He laid it down!!

Exactly. The rule is worded in a way that allows loopholes, or manipulation. It's a way for any promotor to fiddle things in their favour if and when the time comes because of poorly defined criteria in the rule book.

FWIW, I heard a rumour that Wolves had their hand forced into signing Woffy, as Belle Vue were sniffing around him... Woffy then told the Wolves promotion that he was going to go to BV, so they had to react and sign him themselves...

@BurntFaceMan While I agree with the points you have been trying to make, your application of statistics in this argument is misguided at best... "This means that if you were to bring a GP rider into the league, they'd need to achieve an average of approximately 8.4pts to be worth bringing into the league. Currently, only 37.5% of GP riders in the league are actually achieving this average. That means that any promoter who wants to bring a GP rider into the league, on an assessed 8pt average, has a 62.5% chance that their rider will fail to deliver the goods required to warrant that average." You keep saying that unless an 8.00 rider (aka a GP rider) can achieve a 8.40+ average he is essentially a poor selection for a team, and then added that 62.5% of GP riders haven't succeeded in that regard. Firstly I want to address this figure of 62.5%. Your sample size to attain this figure is whole inadequate - one season. Anyone with any sort of background in statistical analysis would know this, and wouldn't keep running it into the ground. Why haven't you included similar analysis of rider averages since the GPs started? Or perhaps for the last five seasons? Your use of this one, flawed statistic, then shapes statements like: "If you were a promoter, would you risk bringing one of the top 15 riders in the world into our league, when there is a 62.5% chance that they will not score enough to warrant their average?" So for team building purposes for next season promotors will be thinking about the 2016 season in isolation? Then there is your whole argument about needing 46pts (13 wins) and approx 46 points to win a meeting, hence the 0.40 increase in all riders averages.... This assumes all riders are equally responsible for a team's improvement, which isn't something any sane promotor would be looking to achieve. If a side signs GP Rider A, one of the top 15 in the world, on say a 9.50 GSA and he only MAINTAINS it, because he's already at his peak, while at reserve that allows you to sign a young, up and coming rider on a low average who improves who adds 1.00+ to his GSA, then between them they have been a success. In your back and white analysis, GP Rider A has been a poor signing. He could have topped the league averages without improving and still been a bad signing... We also cannot assume that the riders in the Grand Prix Series are the sport's very best riders because of a variety of issues, such as injuries, form and machinery, not to mention including the fact the event organisers award permanent wildcards based on their financial pull for the series (i.e. a Swedish rider if none qualify as there are two GPs in Sweden each season etc...) Anyway, sorry to attack your though-out and lengthy analysis, but as someone who quite likes a bit of data analysis, your interpretation of some flawed data was particularly irksome.

@grachan It's just hiding behind the rules like Poole/Matt Ford get criticized for every year to say that. The very best rider in the world shouldn't be allowed to compete on a 7.03 average in a weakened Elite League. As long as the sport's governing body allows stuff like this to happen, the most ambitious promoters will continue to take advantage... If you want to stop Poole doing it every year, you have to stop everyone doing it.

@BWitcher I feel we have a difference of opinion due to inherent bias of clubs supported (especially me). I understand your point of view but don't whole-heartedly agree with it. I'd like common-sense to prevail and for British speedway to be run by people who don't allow such flagrant rule-bending and abuse year-in and year-out, which includes re-assessing Woffinden to a more representative average after his absence. Feel free to reply, but I feel we're just going to go round-and-round-and-round here...

Haha, well that's my choice of words, perhaps not his? He might prefer wind-up merchant or something similar

Gavan can be reasonable, but his war with Starman is one of the most annoying things on this forum. Both parties need to ignore each other, permanently. I'd also add that the clearly antagonistic language from a Gavan post is only rivalled by the level of righteousness they often display! It's a shame because I've seen him have some quality debates at times. As for Shovvy, well, he's the forum's troll in Poole colours, and as others have pointed out, it's usually screamingly obvious in the way his posts are written as to what the intended effect is.... I also sit with him on a regular basis at Wimborne Rd and think he's a pretty sound bloke, and you'd know that too if you came and said hello!

Any time Poole have signed a rider on a false average we get murdered for it - "he wasn't trying for half a season" and "deliberate average manipulation by XXX". As per speedway-stats.co.uk Tai's UK averages have been as follows: 2011 Tai Woffinden - 8.38 2012 Tai Woffinden - 8.76 2013 Tai Woffinden - 9.25 2014 Tai Woffiden - 7.06 2016 Tai Woffinden - 8.50 (five matches only) Spot the odd one out!?? Regardless of being legal, it stinks. Use common-sense and re-assess. Okay - I get where you are coming from - the use of assessment. We shall have to agree to disagree on this point. Yes it can be abused, but there are cases when common sense needs to prevail.

@BWitcher So you think allowing the world's best speedway rider into a weakened league on a ludicrously low average, which he is blowing out of the water, is fine? I am not saying it is outside of the rules, I'm just calling it BS. Simply re-assess Woffy to a more realistic 8.50 (I could just about live with an 8.00). I wouldn't be against seeing Lindback get assessed as an 8.00 either.

It's false because he is one of the best riders in the world, a x2 World Champion and is currently over achieving his average by 1.50 points per meeting. Did you honestly expect Tai to average 7.03??? Personally I think Woffy is the best rider in the world (perhaps not on form right now, but bigger picture and all that...) and he should be able to post a 9.00+ average if actually trying in the weakened UK Elite League. It's people allowing this kind of BS, including all the times Poole have done it, that make this sport a joke. Which is a real shame, because it's actually quite good.

Well, this thread is just a flaming dumpster fire of cry babies and haters. It's fine for Wolves to sack a healthy rider and bring in Woffy on a false average, yet Poole sign Lindback on a much more feasible average for a season-ending injury to Hansii and they get slaughtered for it. As pointed out by SCB we've got several GP riders riding in the Elite League averaging in the mid 7s; Zagar 7.55 and Lindgren 7.54, who are a comparable standard of rider to Lindback in my opinion. What the BSPA does to with regards to re-assessing Lindback's average is THEIR decision, but I'd guess they are protecting their interest by ensuring a more competitive playoffs by allowing Poole to sign a heatleader calibre rider to replace their captain and No.2. As for Woffy's average, well anyone with any modicum of sense flat out KNOWS his average is a joke. Why can't he be re-assessed? If he was given a more realistic average when he signed I don't think anyone could reasonably take issue with it, but bringing him in in the way they did stunk. It's within the rules, but it's pretty filthy. I'm aware Poole have made similar moves in the past, and while it benefits our side, I'm capable of acknowledging they were also fishy as fook moves too. To my mind the problem is that speedway is a mickey mouse sport that constantly makes short-sighted decisions and shoots itself in the foot. The BSPA really does lack self-awareness and foresight, and it is THEIR fault the sport is dying, not the Poole Pirates. As many people on this forum can see Matt Ford is an excellent promotor and does a better job than all his competitors. It's a shame he's a bit of a tosser, but hey, no-one is perfect.

As much as I'd also like to see Magic back, I wouldn't count on it. To be honest we need a league in which all teams can compete and race, and a Poole team with KK and Magic would be on of the league's strongest IMO based on the turnout of the sport's top riders in British speedway. I'd rather see more meetings like last night, and by that I mean close, competitive racing. If that means no GP riders, so be it. Riders like Kurtz, Ellis, Newman, Stevie Worrall, Charlie Wright etc... have turned in some of the most enjoyable racing I've seen all year. I'd happily pay to see those guys duke it out every week and not miss the likes of Doyley, Zagar, AJ and Iversen, despite the fact they are all superb riders.

KK is currently peerless around Wimborne Road. There isn't a currently a rider in the world I'd pick to beat him round there in a match race. Gating is irrelevant for him too as he just seems to blow by anyone. For some mad reason Ladbrokes were offering KK over 9pts at EVS last night so I filled my boots! You'd have to think he's eyeing up a return to Poole next season... Bjarne did look surprisingly quick last night which is promising for the playoffs, but we really need Buzz to step it up a gear. He's been very inconsistent for a good six weeks now. Last night was a case in point, as his sole win was arguably the best ride of the night to hold off Zagar? and Cook? who were both riding different lines and attacking him at once. I still don't get the negativity about Kurtz's performances. I've been pretty pleased with his development in his first year in the top flight. Yes he didn't score well last night but he has clearly got a fast setup and good line at home now, he just got caught out going too wide after gating in one heat (the great ride by Buzz) and fell off in another when he had made his mind up on his line heading into bends 1&2, and the Belle Vue rider in front ran across his intended line and forced him to go wider than he wanted - he was carrying too much speed was he wanted to blast round the boards, and drifted too far wide and laid it down. He'd already be on my 2017 teamsheet, along with Ellis and KK. Throughly enjoyed the meeting last night and bearing in mind how good the Belle Vue v Poole leg looked on TV in the highlights package, I'm really hoping that British Speedway gets these two teams in the televised final, as we'll be in for a couple of crackers.

@Poole Keith - Bjarne has been better than Davey Watt. And for what it's worth, I am not complaining about Bjarne - he is exactly what I expected. Can't complain about his point scoring, but he is exposed as a second string. IMO the current Poole 1-7 with Holder, Hansii and Buck as heatleaders, Ellis & Kurtz as second strings, and Bjarne & Newman at reserve is how the team should be, form-wise right now. Not sure if getting Kurtz or Ellis back at reserve for the playoffs would benefit us. Their increased points (and rides?) from reserve counters the drop in scoring from Bjarne or Kyle in the main team.....

Really don't get where the comments about Ellis and Kurtz under-performing this season have come from (*may not even have been in this thread to be honest!). To my mind they've been the highlight over the past month or so! Both have been sensational at home, and a tad inconsistent away. I don't expect every Poole rider to instantly turn into a world-beater and future World Champ, so I've been pleased with the progress I've seen from both, and really hope both will be back next season. Also, since the loss at home to Belle Vue, Holder has made a big leap forward. His home form has been exceptional, and other than KK, no-one has really been a threat to him around Wimbourne Road. The problem for me with the current Poole side is that Bjarne and Hansii just look slow/under-powered. You can see Hans is 100% committed when on track, but he simply doesn't look fast enough. Bjarne has looked slow ever since he's been back, it's just the race format for reserves is, as has been discussed several times, laughable, so he has been scoring fairly well. He is getting by solely on gating and track craft. You can see him holding up the other less-experienced riders who have been unable to pass him. As for Buck and Newman, both have been inconsistent. Obviously Kyle has had his injury issues, but I'd have hoped to see him coming back to form by now in time for the playoffs. I never know what to expect from Buck - he isn't always the smoothest rider on track, but he is always trying. He needs to be a little more aware of his teammates perhaps, as I felt he was a little hard on Hansii and I think Kurtz last night in a couple of races. If Poole are to make a change I'd imagine it would be Buck who makes way, which is a shame. He hasn't been "bad" and would not deserve to be fired, but he seems the obvious guy to replace. We should have every chance of an upset at the NSS on Monday, and if any team knows what is required to dig deep at the end of the season to snag top position and choice of opponent in the semi, it's Poole. I fancy our chances against anyone over two legs as we're very strong at home. It would be a case of limiting the damage in the away leg....

Can we also change the result of the race where Adam Ellis lost 2nd on the last bend please (to Thorsell?), and tell Bet365!!?? I backed Ellis -2 vs Howath. ROBBED! Damn extra ride for Howarth and a silly dropped point.... GRRR

It pretty disappointing to me that we have so few matches in June. I'll go to pretty much anything speedway staged at Poole. I also miss international test series, the good old 7 v 7 style with a PROPER race format that didn't create unsustainable averages for reserves. How hard would it be to set up a three match test series between Team GB and Australia at Poole, Swindon and say Coventry (they need revenue from the sounds of it!). With so many riders complaining about a lack of race fitness due to rain-offs, why not sort something like this out?

Poole by 14 tonight. Disappointing to see the trolls out in force. Joonas is not equal to Buzz at Poole.

Nationalism! It's them, versus us!