lucifer sam

He's heading in the right direction then. All the best Rob

That doesn't quite fit with the Brighton Bonanza, which used to be staged indoors during December. And if the restaging had to be indoors, Newport could have borrowed the Millennium Stadium for their leg. All the best Rob

But he then contradicted himself by placing both Bruce Penhall & Hans Nielsen in the 1970s foreign top 10, on the basis on just two and three seasons respectively. Nielsen maybe, as he was a double World Champion by the end of the 1970s (1978 WTC & 1979 World Pairs). But Penhall - I don't think so. And I'm huge Bruce Penhall fan. He peaked from 1980 onwards. I'd put him in the top three foreigners in the 1980s (along with a certain two Danes ), but Penhall shouldn't feature in the top 10 foreigners from the 1970s, not given the other riders at their peaks in the 1970s. All the best Rob

Not Michael Lee or Simon Wigg then. Ah, I've got it.... Berwick is a Northern club. Congrats to Rob Grant. Seriously, I'll be very interested to see Mr. Berry's picks and his justification for them. There's several ways you can go in picking the top British rider of the 1980s. All the best Rob

Falcace, I can see what you're saying, although Chris Morton is a bit different from the other riders. Both Shawn Moran & Phil Crump both finished on the World Final rostrum, although it's true that their overall World Final record do not go anywhere near their ability. As for Schwartz, it just shows how mega-tough the American round was in the 1980s that a rider of his quality never reached the final. Chris Morton had plenty of opportunites in World Final, yet he never even got remotely close to the rostrum. It's probably down to his (lack of) gating skills, something it's very, very difficult to get away with in a World Final. Chris Morton clearly was a very talented speedway rider. But he lacks that extra something that seperates an Individual World Champion from the rest of the crowd. Something that Michael Lee had. And therefore I still plump for Lee to be No. 1 rather than Chris Morton. And if you're after consistency, I would point in the direction of Simon Wigg, a top rider for pretty much the whole decade (he spent the first few years of the decade emerging, but then again, so did Peter Collins in the 1970s). Wiggy could match Mort for consistency with the extra bonus that he could find that little bit extra in World Finals. And Wiggy's roll call of success is very, very long - he was a born winner. I agree it's an enjoyable debate, and that there's no clear-cut stand-out name. It's all down to opinion. All the best Rob

Falcace, this was my original top 20, that I put together about a week ago, but didn't post because I wanted to look at the BL averages first: 1. Michael Lee 2. Simon Wigg 3. Chris Morton 4. Kenny Carter 5. Kelvin Tatum 6. Peter Collins 7. Dave Jessup 8. Les Collins 9. Jeremy Doncaster 10. Simon Cross 11. Marvyn Cox 12. Alan Grahame 13. Phil Collins 14. Andy Grahame 15. Neil Evitts 16. Paul Thorp 17. Andy Smith 18. John Davis 19. Steve Bastable 20. Joe Owen As I said, it's uncannily like the list I then ended up with once I decided to award points. One reason I did this is because I'm not terribly objective when it comes to British riders in the 1980s. Marvyn Cox & Simon Wigg were heroes of mine, whilst I never liked either Carter or Tatum. Whereas I could be objective about the 70s, I can't do likewise in the 80s. So I thought awarding points for what I thought should be rewarded was a better way for me to do it, only to end up with almost exactly the same list again!!!! Personally, for me, Michael Lee has to be the No. 1. Watch a video of his rides in the 1980 World Final and his sensational pass of Bruce Penhall. Was there another British rider during the 1980-1989 period capable of that kind of performance? No. Meanwhile, Chris Morton was admirably consistent (although he never actually topped the BL averages), but the major sticking point is his World Final record. It's just not good enough for him to be considered the best British rider of the 1980s. IMHO the top man has to a winner - at the very, very top level. All the best Rob

Falcace, I think the World Longtrack Championship remained an important event throughout the eighties - it was only in the nineties that its importance faded as top riders elected to ride in the emerging Polish league in preference to spending Sundays in Germany for the big Longtrack events. Just look at the roll of honour for the 1980s: 1980 - Karl Maier 1981 - Michael Lee 1982 - Karl Maier 1983 - Shawn Moran 1984 - Erik Gundersen 1985 - Simon Wigg 1986 - Erik Gundersen 1987 - Karl Maier 1988 - Karl Maier 1989 - Simon Wigg Two World Champions and two World No. 2's in that list. Add in names such of Ivan Mauger, Hans Nielsen, Peter Collins and Egon Muller, and it's plain to see that the cream of the crop rode in the World Longtrack during the 1980s. The weighting of the various World Championship evetns was down to the number of riders in each championship. The Longtrack is in an individual so was 5 points, the Pairs is 3 points apiece (i.e. a total of 6), the World Team Cup is four or five riders (i.e. 8 to 10 points). I actually regard the World Team Cup as the second most important competition, but an individual has less less of an input, hence the points being shared amongst the riders. I was amazed how close the list came out to the top 20 I had written down beforehand (the top three are in the same order, Tatum & Carter simply swapped positions, as did Jessup & Collins). No doubt I was subconsciously thinking about it, as I worked out the points system - I knew what I wanted to reward. It's the same with any devised way of working out such a list. All the best Rob

Oh, for goodness sake, yes it wasn't an entirely satisfactory end to the season, but show a bit of grace and congratulate Buxton. All the best Rob

Congratulations to Buxton - a well-deserved success. All the best Rob

The point system for calculating my top 20 is as follows: World Final: 1st 25pts, 2nd 10pts, 3rd, 5pts, Finalist (including reserves) 1pt. British Final/BLRC/ICF: 1st 3pts, 2nd 2pts, 3rd 1pt. Winner of other Internationl Rounds Of World Championship (Commonwealth, Overseas): 2pts. World Longtrack Champion: 5pts. World Pairs Champion: 3pts. World Team Cup Champion: 2pts (just 1pt for Cross in 1989 and none for non-riding Davis in 1980). Euro U21 Champion: 2pts. Top British rider in BL averages: 3pts (5pts if top rider overall in averages). Second British rider in BL averages: 2pts. Other riders with BL average in excess of 9.00 (8.00 in 1988 & 1989, due to intro of fixed gates and nominated race): 1pt. British League Champions: 1pt for each rider in team (Qualification: 6 matches). KO Cup Winners: 1pt for each rider in team (Qualification: 1 leg of final - excluding guests) (NB both Oxford & Cradley riders to get a point in 1986). And this is the resultant list: 1. Michael Lee (53 pts) - 1980 World Champion, 1981 World Longtrack Champion, and also maybe the best rider in the world in 1983. Yes, he didn't last the whole of the decade, but he was capable of taking on and beating the best in an individual World Final (he made it look easy at Gothenburg in 1980), and there wasn't another British rider from the decade who could do that. 2. Simon Wigg (53 pts) - won no fewer than four British League titles during the decade. Twice British Champion (1998 & 1989) and World No.2 in 1989. Also an impressive all-rounder, who won the first two of five World Longtrack titles during the 1980s. 3. Chris Morton (38 pts) - there or thereabouts for the whole decade. Won the BLRC (1984), British Final (1983), World Pairs (1984), World Team Cup (1980) and Inter-Continental Final (1980), as well as leading Belle Vue to various honours. But never finished above eighth in an individual World Final. 4. Kelvin Tatum (36 pts) - something of a gater, but that didn't stop him racking up an impressive list of honours both individually and with Coventry in the closing years of the decade. 5. Kenny Carter (33 pts) - a huge talent, shown by a couple of wins apiece in the BLRC and British Final. However, he shone only rarely on the world stage and won only one World title (the 1983 World Pairs with Peter Collins). 6. Dave Jessup (31 pts) - had an incredible year in 1980, totting up the honours, and won the Overseas Final twice in 1981 & 1982. 7. Peter Collins (24 pts) - was arguably never the same after an injury at the end of the 1980 season, but still won more World titles (three Pairs and one WTC) than any other British rider in the 1980s. 8. Jeremy Doncaster (22 pts) - star of the 1989 World Team Cup winning side and also World No. 3 that year. Consistent at league level. 9. Les Collins (17 pts) - won the BLRC in 1980, Inter-Continental Final in 1982 and World No. 2 in 1982. 10. Simon Cross (13 pts) - 1988 Overseas Champion and nearly (alongside Tatum) upset the Danish applecart at the 1988 World Pairs. 11. Alan Grahame (13 pts) - along with Phil Collins, formed the "engine room" of the Cradley side that won so many honours during the 1980s. Also won a personal battle against Hodkinson's disease during the decade. 12. Phil Collins (13 pts) - 1983 Overseas Champion, a stalwart of the successful Cradley Heathens, and a battler on the track. 13. Andy Grahame (12 pts) - 1982 British Champion and also on the rostrum in 1983 & 1984, also won three league titles with Oxford. 14. Marvyn Cox (8 pts) - 1984 European Under-21 champion, and helped Oxford to three BL championships. Capable of passing any rider from behind. 15. John Davis (8 pts) - British No. 2 in 1985 and a World Finalist in 1980 & 1988. 16. Neil Evitts (6 pts) - 1986 British Champion and also a World Finalist that year. 17. Gordon Kennett (3 pts) - still a real force in the British League in the early eighties, with a near 10.00 average in 1981. 18. Steve Bastable (3 pts) - shock winner of the 1981 British Final. 19. Gary Havelock (3 pts) - 1987 European Under-21 Champion. 20. Paul Thorp (2 pts) - nearly reached the World Final as a National League rider in 1986, and part of the 1989 World Team Cup winning side. A very effective force around the old Belle Vue Hyde Road track. All the best Rob

Kevin Jolly's 1980 BL average was from 9 meetings before he was injured. He's open to debate whether he could have kept that up for a whole season, but this name is listed in the averages in the 1981 Yearbook. All the best Rob

The 11.83 figure is from BL matches only i.e. the second half of the season in 1986 (he averaged 12.00 away from home!!! ), . For 1985-1987, the League Cup took up the first half of the season and the British League the second, but to be consistent, I've used British League matches only throughout the decade. Nielsen's 11.83 is the best league average recorded in British Speedway (qualification: six matches). For interest, Nielsen's average from all offical meetings for Oxford in 1986 was a still pretty staggering 11.57, with 31 maximums from 45 official meetings. All the best Rob

1: Carl Askew (O), Nicky Allot (S), Phil White (S), Mick Handley (O), 67.1 (3-3). 2: David Sheilds (O), John Hack (O), Danny Boyle (S), Jim Priest (S) (fell), 69.9 (8-4). All the best Rob

British World Champions (plus European Under-21 Champions) during the 1980s: 1980 World Champion - Michael Lee World Pairs Champions - Dave Jessup & Peter Collins World Team Cup Champions - Michael Lee, Chris Morton, Peter Collins & Dave Jessup (John Davis - non-riding reserve) 1981 World Longtrack Champion - Michael Lee 1983 World Pairs Champions - Kenny Carter and Peter Collins 1984 World Pairs Champions - Chris Morton and Peter Collins (European Under-21 Champion - Marvyn Cox) 1985 World Longtrack Champion - Simon Wigg 1987 (European Under-21 Champion - Gary Havelock) 1989 World Team Cup Champions - Jeremy Doncaster, Kelvin Tatum, Simon Wigg, Paul Thorp and Simon Cross World Longrack Champion - Simon Wigg TOTALS: Peter Collins 4 Michael Lee 3 Simon Wigg 3 Dave Jessup 2 Chris Morton 2 Kenny Carter 1 Kelvin Tatum 1 Jeremy Doncaster 1 Paul Thorp 1 Simon Cross 1 John Davis 1 (Plus Marvyn Cox & Gary Havelock as European U21 Champions) British Individual World Finalists in the 1980s: 1980: 1 MICHAEL LEE 14, 2 Dave Jessup 12, 6 John Davis 9, 8 Chris Morton 8, 9 Peter Collins 8. 1981: 5 Kenny Carter 11, 8 Dave Jessup 7, 10 Michael Lee 5, 11 Chris Morton 5. 1982: 2 Les Collins 13, 5 Kenny Carter 10, 6 Dave Jessup 8, 13 Peter Collins 5, Andy Grahame DNR (res). 1983: 3 Michael Lee 11, 5 Kenny Carter 10, 10 Chris Morton 7, 13 Phil Collins 4. 1984: 6 Simon Wigg 9, 11 Alan Grahame 5 (res). 1985: 8 Kelvin Tatum 8, Phil Collins DNR (res). 1986: 3 Kelvin Tatum 12, 8 Chris Morton 8, 9 Neil Evitts 8, 12 Marvyn Cox 3. 1987: 6 Jeremy Doncaster 20, 11 Simon Cross 10, 13 Chris Morton 9. 1988: 6 Simon WIgg 9, 8 Kelvin Tatum 8, 10 Chris Morton 6, 12 John Davis 3, Simon Cross DNR (rest). 1989: 2 Simon Wigg 12, 3 Jeremy Doncaster 12, 5 Kelvin Tatum 10, 7 Andy Smith 10. All the best Rob

It didn't take too long in the end (well, apart from 1983, when the Speedway Star didn't publish a final set of BL averages and I had to work out the final Halifax & Cradley averages myself!). The below averages are from British League matches ONLY. I've listed down to 9.00 for 1980-1987, and down to 8.00 for 1988 & 1989 (as the top averages came down, due to the introduction of both fixed gate positions and a nominated heat). British riders in BOLD. 1980: PETER COLLINS 10.70 Hans Nielsen 10.70 DAVE JESSUP 10.52 Bo Petersen 10.46 Bruce Penhall 10.35 MICHAEL LEE 10.17 CHRIS MORTON 10.11 Jan Andersson 10.08 Scott Autrey 9.97 Bobby Schwartz 9.95 Ole Olsen 9.70 JOHN DAVIS 9.54 GORDON KENNETT 9.50 Dennis Sigalos 9.41 Phil Crump 9.41 MALCOLM SIMMONS 9.40 KEVIN JOLLY 9.18 Larry Ross 9.12 Richard Hellsen 9.22 Ron Preston 9.09 1981: Bruce Penhall 11.08 KENNY CARTER 10.50 Phil Crump 10.39 MICHAEL LEE 10.34 Erik Gundersen 10.26 CHRIS MORTON 10.26 Jan Andersson 10.02 GORDON KENNETT 9.95 Kelly Moran 9.83 Hans Nielsen 9.83 Bo Petersen 9.81 DAVE JESSUP 9.59 JOHN DAVIS 9.34 Tommy Knudsen 9.27 ALAN GRAHAME 9.26 Ole Olsen 9.12 Bobby Schwartz 9.09 Larry Ross 9.06 1982: KENNY CARTER 11.05 Erik Gundersen 10.72 Hans Nielsen 10.49 Bruce Penhall 10.39 Dennis Sigalos 10.21 Bobby Schwartz 10.11 CHRIS MORTON 9.98 Kelly Moran 9.97 Billy Sanders 9.93 Shawn Moran 9.88 Ron Preston 9.87 Jan Andersson 9.78 GORDON KENNETT 9.62 Larry Ross 9.59 ALAN GRAHAME 9.49 Phil Crump 9.44 MICHAEL LEE 9.42 Tommy Knudsen 9.17 PETER COLLINS 9.10 LES COLLINS 9.07 1983: Dennis Sigalos 10.99 Hans Nielsen 10.77 Erik Gundersen 10.59 MICHAEL LEE 10.43 Mitch Shirra 10.38 KENNY CARTER 10.34 Billy Sanders 10.27 CHRIS MORTON 10.17 Phil Crump 9.85 Jan Andersson 9.61 Shawn Moran 9.38 Ole Olsen 9.25 Tommy Knudsen 9.20 PAUL WOODS 9.18 DAVE JESSUP 9.17 SIMON WIGG 9.15 Bobby Schwartz 9.14 Lance King 9.11 1984: Hans Nielsen 10.69 CHRIS MORTON 10.65 Jan Andersson 10.30 Phil Crump 9.94 SIMON WIGG 9.91 Bobby Schwartz 9.73 PETER COLLINS 9.73 Billy Sanders 9.73 Shawn Moran 9.66 John Cook 9.36 Lance King 9.19 Mitch Shirra 9.18 Erik Gundersen 9.16 1985: Hans Nielsen 11.42 Eirk Gundersen 11.11 Tommy Knudsen 10.37 Shawn Moran 10.26 Bobby Schwartz 10.00 SIMON WIGG 9.70 JEREMY DONCASTER 9.60 Jan Andersson 9.57 CHRIS MORTON 9.53 John Cook 9.40 Bo Petersen 9.33 PETER COLLINS 9.08 JOHN DAVIS 9.04 1986: Hans Nielsen 11.83 SIMON WIGG 11.01 Erik Gundersen 10.91 JEREMY DONCASTER 10.19 Shawn Moran 10.14 CHRIS MORTON 9.74 Sam Ermolenko 9.66 John Jorgensen 9.66 Tommy Knudsen 9.57 Jan Andersson 9.46 Bobby Schwartz 9.23 Phil Crump 9.17 1987: Hans Nielsen 11.73 Tommy Knudsen 10.90 KELVIN TATUM 10.42 Erik Gundersen 10.22 Jan O. Pedersen 9.84 JEREMY DONCASTER 9.83 SIMON CROSS 9.77 Jimmy Nilsen 9.73 Mitch Shirra 9.66 Shawn Moran 9.58 Sam Ermolenko 9.47 Per Jonsson 9.35 SIMON WIGG 9.17 Peter Ravn 9.01 1988: Hans Nielsen 11.00 KELVIN TATUM 10.41 Tommy Knudsen 10.23 Erik Gundersen 9.96 Jan O. Pedersen 9.75 Shawn Moran 9.52 Sam Ermolenko 9.32 JEREMY DONCASTER 9.32 Per Jonsson 9.11 CHRIS MORTON 8.98 Jan Andersson 8.96 Kelly Moran 8.74 SIMON WIGG 8.66 SIMON CROSS 8.44 GARY HAVELOCK 8.30 Mike Faria 8.21 Mitch Shirra 8.18 1989: Hans Nielsen 10.97 Jan O. Pedersen 10.39 Sam Ermolenko 10.00 Erik Gundersen 10.00 Shawn Moran 9.75 KELVIN TATUM 9.49 SIMON CROSS 9.32 JEREMY DONCASTER 8.51 Jimmy Nilsen 8.33 Ronnie Correy 8.12 Brian Karger 8.05 Kelly Moran 8.00 I'm off to reconsider my list. It looks like I need to get Gordon Kennett somewhere in the lower reaches, while Les Collins needs to come down a bit. I'll post my final top 20 later today. All the best Rob

Parsloes, surely it is more the fault of the league administrator, who should be ensuring that clubs have reserved dates put aside for the play-offs. If have to have play-offs, the aim should be for a mid-October completion, with proper reserved dates, this could happen quite easily. I just hope that the one leg can go-ahead today and some sort of result can be declared. It would still be a hugely unsatisfactory outcome, but some sort of result is better than no result at all. All the best Rob

Main Man, thanks for replying. Something certainly needs to be done for 2011 (if the play-offs continue. I really don't see the need for them in the National League). My suggestion would be each club setting aside reserved dates throughout September and the first half of October. E.g. this year, the deadline for the play-offs was Sept 12, so each club should have reserved dates during Sept 16-22 for the first leg of the semis, and Sept 23-29 for the second leg. For the final, each club, should have reserved dates of Sept 30-Oct 6 & Oct 7-13 for the two legs, depending on which they end up staging. Clubs can only put other meetings on in these weeks, once they are out of the play-offs, or was its known that their home leg is not being staged that week. The aim has to be finish the play-offs by mid-October. The second half of October should be for emergencies only. All the best Rob

Main Man, but come you took so long to get on with your play-off matches? And why didn't you restage the meeting in the afternoon today?? All the best Rob

I looked through the Complete History of the British League, but the averages are team-by-team, rather than a summary of the top averages. I'm still going to go through the Stars, all I need is one from the end of each October. And sorry, but IMHO the No. 1 Brit has to be an individual World Champion - a rider who never finished above eighth doesn't cut it for me. The No. 1 has to be a winner, not an World Final also-ran. All the best Rob

Any chance of a restaging tomorrow afternoon? How long does it take to drive from Newport to Rue House - could the riders do both? I can't believe that this situation has been allowed to develop. There's no way the play-off final should be taking place in the final three days of the season. The deadline for the NL play-offs was 47 days ago. All the best Rob

I'm after a quick summary of the 1980s 9.00+ BL averages as well, but they don't seem to be readily avaiable in one location. I guess I'll have to plough through the Speedway Stars and post them here. And personally, I can't see how Chris Morton can No. 1. He never finished above eighth in a World Final. He was a very good rider, but not quite there at the very, very top level (i.e. Individual World Finals). I've got 20 names (which I will change around after studying the averages), but I've got a firm idea who my Nos 1 & 2 will be - and they will be winners, not eighth placed riders. The No. 1 has to be a World Champion, not nearly men such as Carter and Morton. All the best Rob

Great to see the Hitmen having such a great season. They've already taken the National Trophy and KOC, could the league title be about to follow? Buxton Speedway is a credit to the Moss family and all involved. A terrific little club, who have brought on so many youngsters over the last 16 years. They are the perfect example of how speedway should be run at this level. All the best Rob

Given that the NL cut-out date for the play-offs was September 12, how on earth did we get into this situation in the first place? All the best Rob

Well, I would say that he is fault, because you can only get grit thrown up by a competitor's rear wheel is if you're getting beaten. Kolodziej did blow it under pressure in the GP challenge, but he showed enough at Bydgoszcz to show that he should be in the GP. All the best Rob

Cheers, Conkers. All the best Rob