Kenny Carter Book

[lucifer sam 3,954]

If my leg were broken. I'd be thinking the chips were down. He hopped on his 500cc bike and tried to do the impossible.

 

Falcace, you're missing the point. No-one is doubting Carter's bravery. However, his resistance to pressure was less good.

 

Kenny Carter didn't win a single big individual meeting in 1983. He didn't have a broken leg that year. What stopped Carter from going out and winning the big events in a year where he should have cleaned up. I think the answer is psychological.

 

All the best

Rob

 

[iris123 21,029]

I've never mentioned the word illegal. Muller did nothing illegal that day. Can I be any clearer? If you are looking back at Kenny's quote, it was said with humour. I would compare Muller's mechanical advantage that day with say, what you sometimes get in Formula One. Jenson Button didn't do anything illegal this season, but would he have won the world championship if his Brawn car hadn't enjoyed such a strong advantage at the start of the season?

Ok,fair enough.I saw the quote as a suggestion that Egons bike was illegal not as a humourous remark

[fatface 2,557]

So how come Muller only got a maximum because of someone else having an e/f?

It was his last ride, I think he only needed a third. So could happily to sit in second. Think PC 76, think Penhall 81. The way he was going, if he'd needed to win, he would have.

 

Falcace, you're missing the point. No-one is doubting Carter's bravery. However, his resistance to pressure was less good.

 

Kenny Carter didn't win a single big individual meeting in 1983. He didn't have a broken leg that year. What stopped Carter from going out and winning the big events in a year where he should have cleaned up. I think the answer is psychological.

 

All the best

Rob

You've abandoned the word defeatist then? Off the top of my head, Kenny won the big Olsen farewell, think he also won the World Final revenge at Vojens and Golden Gauntlets in 83 and top scored in winning the World Pairs with his good pal PC, but I'm nitpicking (and a little nerdish in my knowledge of that era!). Agreed that 83 wasn't his greatest year. Tony's book tells how business was a big distraction that year. You're probably right he could have won more in that particular year. But I can't be convinced the World Championship trophy itself was up for grabs. Gunther Sorber had that engraved in January

[lucifer sam 3,954]

You've abandoned the word defeatist then? Off the top of my head, Kenny won the big Olsen farewell, think he also won the World Final revenge at Vojens and Golden Gauntlets in 83 and top scored in winning the World Pairs with his good pal PC, but I'm nitpicking (and a little nerdish in my knowledge of that era!). Agreed that 83 wasn't his greatest year. Tony's book tells how business was a big distraction that year. You're probably right he could have won more in that particular year. But I can't be convinced the World Championship trophy itself was up for grabs. Gunther Sorber had that engraved in January

 

Falcace, since when has the Golden Gauntlets (not even sure which track staged it!!) been regarded as a big meeting? And Olsen's Farewell was a testimonial. You seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to find meetings that Carter won.

 

As for the World Pairs, I'd already brought that one up myself. England were pretty lucky that day to say the least, whilst the Aussies were most unlucky. The World Pairs always reminds me of Carter's awful performance in the '82 final. World Of Sport covered both the '82 and '83 finals.

 

All the best

Rob

 

 

 

 

[liverpool chad 2]

That's simply not true. I'm an Aces fan and went to the Shay for every Dukes v Aces match from 81-85 and only saw PC beat him once...83 would be my guess. He gated and held on grimly. Great ride it was too. Mort never beat him there..and god knows I wanted him to! if you have eveidence of PC or Phil Collins and Alan Grahame regularly beating him, then by all means bring it to the fore.

 

Only got a couple of Halifax programmes to hand from the time Kenny Carter rode for them. 1980 northen trophy, Mon April 7th met each other twice, heat 6 and heat 12. Peter Collins winning both races on his way to a 15 maximum. British League, Sat July 26th met each other twice, heat 6 and heat 12. Carter 1- Collins 1. Challenge match, Mon 25th August met each other twice Carter 1-Collins 1. The Autumn Classic, Sun October 19th. Met each other three times Carter 1(collins led but bike packed up on last bend) Collins 2.

Also recall them meeting in 1979 but Collins only dropped 4 points in something like 3 visits scoring 9 and 14 when i was in attendance and the only person to beat him was Ian Cartwright( i think) certainly not Carter.

I can recall Collins Beating him Twice in 1982 or 83 once in the league and once in either league cup or KO Cup.

 

The Peter Collins that you saw from late 1981 after his shoulder injury and return from retirement was completely different to the PC before his injury. In 30 meetings at the shay, Collins had a near 11:00 average scoring 13 maximums some of them 15 pt maximums. Will have to dig out all my old programmes to let you know any more info.

 

As for Phil Collins/Alan Grahame 5-1's. I saw it happen 3or4 timesin Carters time with Halifax usually occurring in heat 10 i think.

 

Regards

Mark.

Edited December 1, 2009 by liverpool chad

[fatface 2,557]

Only got a couple of Halifax programmes to hand from the time Kenny Carter rode for them. 1980 northen trophy, Mon April 7th met each other twice, heat 6 and heat 12. Peter Collins winning both races on his way to a 15 maximum. British League, Sat July 26th met each other twice, heat 6 and heat 12. Carter 1- Collins 1. Challenge match, Mon 25th August met each other twice Carter 1-Collins 1. The Autumn Classic, Sun October 19th. Met each other three times Carter 1(collins led but bike packed up on last bend) Collins 2.

Also recall them meeting in 1979 but Collins only dropped 4 points in something like 3 visits scoring 9 and 14 when i was in attendance and the only person to beat him was Ian Cartwright( i think) certainly not Carter.

I can recall Collins Beating him Twice in 1982 or 83 once in the league and once in either league cup or KO Cup.

 

The Peter Collins that you saw from late 1981 after his shoulder injury and return from retirement was completely different to the PC before his injury. In 30 meetings at the shay, Collins had a near 11:00 average scoring 13 maximums some of them 15 pt maximums. Will have to dig out all my old programmes to let you know any more info.

 

As for Phil Collins/Alan Grahame 5-1's. I saw it happen 3or4 timesin Carters time with Halifax usually occurring in heat 10 i think.

 

Regards

Mark.

In 79 and 80, Carter was 18/19 year old kid. But I'd be interested to hear the exact details of the matches in 82 and 83 which you recall. Particularly "running rings" round him in 82. So if you can dig those out, I'd be intuiged to hear of it. Ditto the multiple Grahame/Collins 5-1s.

 

[WATigerman 1]

Of all that can be said about Carter, the words "second rate rider" simply do not merit consideration. His level of achievement speaks for itself.

 

Does it..??!!

Struggling myself to think of too many..??

 

Nor did I offer any. As I said, his achievements spoke for him. Infer as you will.............

Edited December 2, 2009 by WATigerman

[TonyMac 720]

But had Bruce Penhall been still riding, I think he would have won in Norden in 1983. After that, I think Bruce's motivation would have slipped, but IMO he would have been up for Norden and won it.

 

All the best

Rob

 

 

Rob, Bruce had nothing more to prove to anyone after winning the title in '81 & '82. As he has himself admitted, he was burnt out from speedway by the end of '82 and ready for a new challenge - he wouldn't have been up for another crack at it in a German field.

 

but when the chips were really down, did he really believe in himself, despite all the outward bluster? Carter won so little - there has to be a reason for that.

 

 

Rob,

 

Carter believed in himself like no other, to the point where it became self-destructive. It was his failure sometimes to accept that he couldn't do the impossible that rebounded on him so spectacularly.

 

I don't know how you can conclude that he won so little. Apart from the 'Big One', he won the next most important and prestigious individual titles in the form of the British Championship (twice - once when massively handicapped by a broken leg) and the BLRC (twice). He also won the World Pairs with PC and came very close to winning it again with Tatum in '85 before an inspired piece of brilliance by Gundersen denied them.

[fatface 2,557]

Falcace, since when has the Golden Gauntlets (not even sure which track staged it!!) been regarded as a big meeting? And Olsen's Farewell was a testimonial. You seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to find meetings that Carter won.

I was decent enough to admit I was nitpicking there in terms of 1983. I just didn't want it cast aside that he won nothing individually that year..as you had suggested. Look, I'm no big Carter fan. I just want fair recognition for the rider he was, despite his undoubted flaws as a human being. People can argue that he would never have won the World Title anyway, even if that tragic night in 86 never occurred and they have a solid case. But when I hear terms like "second rate" and "defeatist" used alongside his name, I simply cannot let that pass. Whenever there are discussions amongst speedway fans of the best riders never to have won the World Final, his name is invariably one of the first to be mentioned.

 

ps. Golden Gauntlets - Leicester; Blue Riband - Poole; Golden Hammer - Cradley; 16 lapper - Ipswich; Brandonapolis - Coventry (doubled as Olsen's farewell in 83). I thought most people knew these..maybe I'm more of a nerd than I thought?!

Edited December 2, 2009 by falcace

[lucifer sam 3,954]

ps. Golden Gauntlets - Leicester; Blue Riband - Poole; Golden Hammer - Cradley; 16 lapper - Ipswich; Brandonapolis - Coventry (doubled as Olsen's farewell in 83). I thought most people knew these..maybe I'm more of a nerd than I thought?!

 

Falcace, thanks, I know the rest but remember Leicester closed at the end of 1983 and Oxford didn't move BL until 1984. I'm normally a bit of a nerd too (as seen previously on this thread when I reeled off the five major championships that Carter did win from memory) but there was a slight gap in my knowledge there.

 

All the best

Rob

 

Rob,

 

Carter believed in himself like no other, to the point where it became self-destructive. It was his failure sometimes to accept that he couldn't do the impossible that rebounded on him so spectacularly.

 

I don't know how you can conclude that he won so little. Apart from the 'Big One', he won the next most important and prestigious individual titles in the form of the British Championship (twice - once when massively handicapped by a broken leg) and the BLRC (twice). He also won the World Pairs with PC and came very close to winning it again with Tatum in '85 before an inspired piece of brilliance by Gundersen denied them.

 

Tony,

 

But apart from one World Pairs, it's all at a British domestic level. On the international stage, Carter won just one FIM inscribed meeting (the British rounds of the World Championship do not fall under the juridstiction of the FIM).

 

Michael Lee was anoher British rider who burnt himself out too early and yet he won the following on the international stage:

 

World Champion (1980) plus two more on the rostrum in 1979 & 1983

World Longtrack Champion (1981)

World Team Cup Champion (1977 & 1980)

Inter-Continental Champion (1979)

Commonwealth Champion (1979)

 

Six international wins to Carter's one.

 

For some reason, Kenny Carter did underachieve when it came to the highest level. I'm still not sure if constantly telling people how much you believe in yourself is the same as actually believing it. Penhall was so driven to win and yet we rarely heard him saying this. He just got on and did the job.

 

Penhall was one of the highest profile speedway riders of all-time. Hey he even got onto TISWAS and raced Chris Tarrant (Penhall on a tricycle, Tarrant on a Speedway bike, Tarrant was leading but fell off and Penhall won) which I considered fantastically cool at the age of 8. But there was little "I'm the best" bluster from Penhall when he faced the media - there didn't need to be, because he was the best.

 

Penhall hated losing - as the tears at the 1980 World Final proved. But he didn't need to tell us - we just knew. It makes me wonder if Carter's outward bluster was a front and whether that self-belief was actually quite fragile. This would explain why he faded during World Finals - his self-belief went missing at a crucial time.

 

But, as you've already said Tony, what this thread is proved is impact that Kenny Carter had on British Speedway. He was a guy who could get onto the back page of the tabloids. And now we're still arguing about him two than decades onwards. There probably won't be a character quite like Kenny Carter in speedway again. He was a one-off. Which is just as well really.

 

All the best

Rob

[fatface 2,557]

Michael Lee was anoher British rider who burnt himself out too early and yet he won the following on the international stage:

 

World Champion (1980) plus two more on the rostrum in 1979 & 1983

World Longtrack Champion (1981)

World Team Cup Champion (1977 & 1980)

Inter-Continental Champion (1979)

Commonwealth Champion (1979)

 

Six international wins to Carter's one.

Lee had at least eight years at the top level, no major injuries and well, he lived. But, pleased to see that we're now measuring Carter alongside the type of riders he should be compared to. Not sure how many would rank the Longtrack, Inter-continental and Commonwealth titles above the BLRC and British Final. Very few riders or fans from that era I suspect. As for the WTC, it'd be harsh to measure a rider's individual prowess when he is largely reliant on his team-mates. God knows, Carter tried his best. Even his maximum in the Danes' backyard of Vojens against the likes of Penhall, Olsen, Gundersen, Nielsen, Sigalos wasn't enough to get England through to the final in 82.

Edited December 2, 2009 by falcace

[salty 2,203]

Have enjoyed reading this thread. Interesting to see so many different views on Kenny, which I suppose reminds us how, when alive, he also inspired such ranges of opinion.

I reckon the loss of the title in 1982 was something he never really recovered from, he certainly wasn't so dominant domestically in 1983 as he had been in 1982.

Would he have gone on to win a World Individual Title if he'd lived? I doubt it, because the frailties of mind that caused his final actions were already affecting his performance on track. The broken legs in 1984 and 1985 effectively scuppered those hopes and we'll never know if he would have been able to cope with the pressure of being a home favourite at Bradford in 1985.

Was he good? He certainly was. I saw the two BLRC victories and he was brilliant on those nights against very strong fields. Perhaps he would have grabbed a title in 1983 at any other track than Norden, but unless my memory fails me he was only one of many riders who had a shout, whereas in 1982 I saw it as between him and Penhall.

[liverpool chad 2]

In 79 and 80, Carter was 18/19 year old kid. But I'd be interested to hear the exact details of the matches in 82 and 83 which you recall. Particularly "running rings" round him in 82. So if you can dig those out, I'd be intuiged to hear of it. Ditto the multiple Grahame/Collins 5-1s.

 

It will have to be next week now for those programmes if you are that interested! as i am away from home from tonight with work. But believe me it did happen as did the 5-1's for Cradley.

 

This topic as gone a little off topic and i'm probably as responsible for this as anybody else. But don't get me wrong has i have said before i neither liked or disliked Kenny Carter when he was riding, i may of disliked the way he would on occasions, shall we say PUT HIMSELF ABOUT, but i neither liked or disliked him, and i certainly do not have an opinion about him after the tragic events of 1986, as i was not there and to be honest it's none of my business!

I just wanted to get that in as, reading through my previous posts it sounds as though i either had a complete hatred of him or i'm oblivious to what he brought to the sport i love.

It's my opinion that Kenny Carter was a strong heat leader for his club Halifax, had a strong determination to reach the very pinnacle of the sport and on occasions would show glimpses of just what he was capable of (2x BLRC, 2x BRITISH FINAL & GOLDEN HAMMER) iv'e included the golden hammer as IMO thats the best i ever saw of KC he truely was polished that night. But for me he just did not do it on enough occasions and thats why its my opinion that he his not one of the all time greats or best rider not to be crowned world champion. but as i've just stated it's all my own opinion.

 

Regards

Mark.

 

In 79 and 80, Carter was 18/19 year old kid. But I'd be interested to hear the exact details of the matches in 82 and 83 which you recall. Particularly "running rings" round him in 82. So if you can dig those out, I'd be intuiged to hear of it. Ditto the multiple Grahame/Collins 5-1s.

 

So are we going to totally ignore the race's that Collins won and hope that i can't find anymore programmes, and stick to your original story of you only ever seeing collins beat him once!

I was on the phone last night to an old friend of mine who followed halifax from the late 1960's and when i told him of our disagreement about Carter, he said, he felt Carter had the ability to go all the way and not only be world champion but a multi world champion! But after 1982 or by the start of 1983 he felt that he was not going to get any better than he already was and probably would not win a world title, and he saw him every week and not just once a month as i did in those days(Saturday nights split between cov, BV,halifax cradley and swin). when asked about Peter Collins riding at halifax my old friend said Peter Collins could come over that hill beat anyone he liked around Halifax.

Regards

Mark.

[waihekerich 0]

So are we going to totally ignore the race's that Collins won and hope that i can't find anymore programmes, and stick to your original story of you only ever seeing collins beat him once!

I was on the phone last night to an old friend of mine who followed halifax from the late 1960's and when i told him of our disagreement about Carter, he said, he felt Carter had the ability to go all the way and not only be world champion but a multi world champion! But after 1982 or by the start of 1983 he felt that he was not going to get any better than he already was and probably would not win a world title, and he saw him every week and not just once a month as i did in those days(Saturday nights split between cov, BV,halifax cradley and swin). when asked about Peter Collins riding at halifax my old friend said Peter Collins could come over that hill beat anyone he liked around Halifax.

Regards

Mark.

I'm pretty sure that falcace said he only saw Carter get beaten once between 81 and 85, hence why the matches from 79-80 (when Carter was just establishing himself as a heat leader) are excluded. I'm reasonably confident that I saw all the Aces matches at the Shay in that period too, and pretty sure only saw any aces rider (Collins) beat him once (and almost on another when PC was controversially excluded for unfair riding after passing him down the final straight). Certainly Larry Ross (who was probably the Aces' best around the shay in that period) and Mort never beat Kenny there.

Thnik its a fair call that Carter didn't improve after 82 - but he was pretty damn good that season!

[fatface 2,557]

YOU COULD COUNT ON THE FINGERS OF ONE HAND THE TIMES CARTER CAME FROM THE BACK, AND MOST OF THEM HE JUST RODE STRAIGHT THROUGH WHOEVER WAS IN FRONT OF HIM !

NO BRAIN AT ALL.

Here's a little reminder of why I am a little reluctant to rely upon your recollections. This was an absolute gem!