AndyM 1 Posted September 15, 2008 You've lost me here...: what comments on this thread have you been reading...!!!!! I'm sorry that some younger people who never saw a World Final think that the GPs are better. No proper assessment of all of the pros and cons could possibly find in favour of the GPs. There is literally ZERO excitement approaching the climax of this year's World Championship.. That would never have been the case with a one-off World Final. Call me old-fashioned but where would sport be without excitement. Dying on its ar*e, just like the once-proud World Speedway Championship!! Sure, the qualification process for the one-off final was truly dumb on occasions, and should have allowed the best riders an extra chance. That said, I still maintain the principle of a one-off final makes the world championship a real event and maximises the tension and excitement. The best the GP could do is to mimic other competitions, whereby a final GP with double points at stake keeps the excitement alive to the end of the series. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deano 1,318 Posted September 15, 2008 (edited) You've lost me here...: what comments on this thread have you been reading...!!!!! My point was and still is the thread has now been going for eight days and we are only just on our second page. If the topic of a one off world final poll was something the majority wanted, we would be on about ten pages by now. Nothing sinister was mean't. Look at the GP challenge thread, started only a few days ago and on 15 pages of comments already. Edited September 15, 2008 by Deano Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedyguy 20 Posted September 15, 2008 New poll for oldtimespeedway: Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the oldtimespeedway group: Was the original world championship formula (qualifying rounds to a one-off final) preferable to the present Grand Prix format. To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oldtimespeed...veys?id=2091179 Just a couple of days left to vote on this topic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff. 2 Posted September 15, 2008 If Saturdays GP was a one off World Final Hancock would be world champion, a worthy winner on the night but better than Pedersen!! If the Gothenburg GP was a one off final Rune Holta would be world champion, would he have been a worthy title holder, Replace those names with Szackiel, Muller, Havelock, was Szackiel a worthy champion, sure he was the best on that day, and in his case that day only. By no stretch of the imagination was Muller the best speedway rider in the world in 1983, neither was Havvy in 92. How many world finals had the best 16 riders in them, hardly any. Collins wasn't there in 1977 when he was the best in the world, Olsen and Michanek in 1976 were among the top five in the world. Qualification for a World Final was totally random and left a hell of a lot to chance and luck. Excepting Hans Andersen in 2006 can anyone say the GP series to date did not contain the best 15 riders in the world. A world champion is a competitor who has proved himself over an entire season, not just one (maybe lucky) day Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vince 9,458 Posted September 15, 2008 OK ljh I will try to put my point of view to some of your comments. Firstly the rider who apparently can't handle rutted tracks without resorting to foul tactics. The fact that I can't immediately know who you are talking about indicates that you have seen something to give you this view that isn't necesarily viewed in the same way by others. I have seen so many riders in trouble on bad tracks in the GP the last couple of years that I have lost count. Undoubtedly some of them can handle ruts better than others just as some can handle slick tracks better. All of them handle either better than the majority of riders and are only seen as struggling when viewed against the worlds best. Without a doubt there should be a few deep and grippy tracks in the series and there should never be some of the tracks that we do see. A variety of circuits is desirable but although the worst tracks may provide uncertain results I would rather be entertained by the skill of the worlds best riders than a lottery produced by track conditions. Slick tracks: my guess is that on the 'proper' outdoor tracks this is done so as to try and avoid rain off's rather than a great Danish conspiracy. A slick track may well be able to run in poor weather conditions that would cancel a deep one. Some of the temporary tracks though are just a disgrace imo, they desperately need to get some advice from outside the sport on how to put a temporary surface in. From what I have been told they also need to get their hands in their wallets for the track at Cardiff, as the sports showpiece that track especially should be great but is far from it. Maybe a lesser 'star' entertainer would finance a better track which would be a great swap as far as I am concerned. As for Wembley on World final night one old time rider who competed there in either the late fifties or early sixties told me it was awful for the final at least once when he was there. I can see that the battle for the championship is over but for me personally the GP's are still exciting as people battle for their overall position and for the top few to see if they are improving as the build for next year. Even then we have had several important meetings with the Championship at stake rather than just one. I am also uncomfortable with the GP series being run as a seperate entity to the rest of the sport and feel strongly that the revenue could be used to help future competitors worldwide. As for the wild card entries I can understand your point but personally I think it makes sense to be able to include a rider who had mechanical problems in the qualifying rounds or if injuries kept him out of the top 8 the previous year. Though it might be more often used to ensure riders of certain country's get a place, while possibly not strictly ethical, does make financial sense I would imagine. To me while the GP's are far from perfect they are a little closer than the one off finals. I also thoroughly enjoy watching almost all of them, the exception being when a track is so bad that the worlds best riders are made to look like CL reserves. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedyguy 20 Posted September 15, 2008 If Saturdays GP was a one off World Final Hancock would be world champion, a worthy winner on the night but better than Pedersen!! If the Gothenburg GP was a one off final Rune Holta would be world champion, would he have been a worthy title holder, Replace those names with Szackiel, Muller, Havelock, was Szackiel a worthy champion, sure he was the best on that day, and in his case that day only. By no stretch of the imagination was Muller the best speedway rider in the world in 1983, neither was Havvy in 92. How many world finals had the best 16 riders in them, hardly any. Collins wasn't there in 1977 when he was the best in the world, Olsen and Michanek in 1976 were among the top five in the world. Qualification for a World Final was totally random and left a hell of a lot to chance and luck. Excepting Hans Andersen in 2006 can anyone say the GP series to date did not contain the best 15 riders in the world. A world champion is a competitor who has proved himself over an entire season, not just one (maybe lucky) day Harsh words indeed on Egon Muller. He was one of the most professionally prepared riders speedway, grass and long-track racing has ever seen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff. 2 Posted September 15, 2008 Harsh words indeed on Egon Muller. He was one of the most professionally prepared riders speedway, grass and long-track racing has ever seen. Egon never devoted enough time to speedway to considered one of the greats, he was a great long and grass track racer who played at speedway Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martinmauger 584 Posted September 15, 2008 Egon never devoted enough time to speedway to considered one of the greats, he was a great long and grass track racer who played at speedway Think Muller was persuaded to ride speedway by the German authorites, as they had very few actual speedway riders. Though as he showed briefly at Hull in 1976 and the numerous Briggs/Mauger World Tours he could been a very handy speedway rider indeed if he applied himself, he prefared Grass/Longtrack. While some of the temp tracks are far too rutted and slick tracks do cope better with rain, most riders simply want to jet out of the gate and disappear into the distance on a speedway bike set up perfectly to F1 standard. Listen when they are interviewd, they nearly always say a track is patchy and talk about set-ups rarely about actually racing this or that rider. As they are so used to smooth, slick tracks once there is a bit of dirt or slight imperfections in the surface many struggle to cope.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MARK246 243 Posted September 15, 2008 Replace those names with Szackiel, Muller, Havelock, was Szackiel a worthy champion, sure he was the best on that day, and in his case that day only. By no stretch of the imagination was Muller the best speedway rider in the world in 1983, neither was Havvy in 92. Szczakiel had more than one good day,he won the World Pairs Championship in 1971 with A. Wyglenda. On that day he outscored Mauger,Briggs and Michanek, no mean feat in the 70's. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedyguy 20 Posted September 15, 2008 Szczakiel had more than one good day,he won the World Pairs Championship in 1971 with A. Wyglenda. On that day he outscored Mauger,Briggs and Michanek, no mean feat in the 70's. Sadly, Jerzy Szackiel fell a victim to unwarranted hype after his world championship victory. Completely unjustified 'mickey taking' all in the cause of a so-called 'good story' IMO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted September 15, 2008 How many world finals had the best 16 riders in them, hardly any. Collins wasn't there in 1977 when he was the best in the world, Olsen and Michanek in 1976 were among the top five in the world. PC was most certainly there in 1977!!!! And contrary to what you imply, the World Final proved time and time again a consistent indicator of the best in the world; and did so for decades Check out how many rostrum positions went to riders who won the title on other occasions and you'll see in fact very little randomness in how the WFs panned out... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted September 15, 2008 Lastly some heats ( Cardiff 2007 for example) seem to have been (badly) manipulated to financially produce the 'required result'. Sad that OUR sport has sunk to such depths to try and keep the series itself popular. Rod Haynes. Well done Rod..: at last someone brave enuff to say it as it is!! What happened in Cardiff 2007 was, as you say, a disgrace. All non-Speedway fans I've ever shown that Final heat of Cardiff 2007 to have said the same thing..: "why did he let him past to win"? Only those who want to defend the indefensible or too taken up with the moment or perhaps embarrassed by the sheer clumsy obviousness of what Hancock did can say anything contrary. Well over a year later and with the truly awful GPs losing credibility by each succeeding mind-numbingly boring round, it's time to stop the facade and face the facts..!! If there was a one-off World Final, how often would it come to Britain? Once every four years, six years, eight years? Even less than that? I reckon we'd be lucky to see it once every eight to ten years. And this is the daftest argument of all..!! As things stand we will never, that's N-E-V-E-R see a world Champion crowned in GB. That's coz our so-called GP Round is staged very early in the series... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deano 1,318 Posted September 16, 2008 All non-Speedway fans I've ever shown that Final heat of Cardiff 2007 to have said the same thing..: "why did he let him past to win"? You've really lowered the tone of your argument now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyM 1 Posted September 16, 2008 PC was most certainly there in 1977!!!! And contrary to what you imply, the World Final proved time and time again a consistent indicator of the best in the world; and did so for decades Check out how many rostrum positions went to riders who won the title on other occasions and you'll see in fact very little randomness in how the WFs panned out... PC in 77 was if anything the greatest courage by a rider I've known - riding with a broken and gashed leg in torrential rain, but still coming second. He truly deserved that title. There was a hoodoo on WC runners up - PC didn't qualify in 78, and if you check back there were a whole series who didn't make it the year after. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shazzybird 10 Posted September 16, 2008 Early results appear to be anti-GPs. Trees must be on a weeks holiday and keeps voting I'm sorry that some younger people who never saw a World Final think that the GPs are better. I've been to one off finals and GPs and in all honesty I love speedway no matter what. Whichever way you all decide I hope they don't change back to the one off, although that was literally an on the night result, if they still had that system now would Mark Loram have ever become our World Champion quite possibly but we will never know now. The way I see it there's more money involved now with sponsors, prize money etc and the GPs gives us 9 or 10 more meetings a year now to see a rider become World Champion, there have been times when long before the final meeting the title has been "decided" but that doesn't stop the thousands of fans turning up to cheer on their favourite or tuning into SKY sports to cheer from their armchair. If you don't like the GPs simple don't watch them! When I go to Cardiff I don't give a monkeys left nut who's top of the table, I like to see who's going to win at the Millennium Stadium many riders have said it's the ultimate meeting every rider wants to win at Cardiff! Possibly the best meeting in the GP calendar and the only orgasm I've never faked ...... just ask Bomber Harris Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
