cardrew 0 Posted March 25, 2010 The one factor you have overlooked is that the World Finals were held at Wembley from 1936 and thus favoured a home track rider (e.g. 5 Wembley Champions in 12 years - Frank Charles 1935, Lionel Van Praag 1936, Tommy Price 1949, Freddie Williams 1950, Freddie Williams 1953). I have included 1935 Star Championship as it was run on the same lines as 1936 (without the bonus points). 1935 season was dominated by the rivalry between Bluey Wilkinson (Australian Champion) and Tom Farndon (British Champion), unfortunately the anticipated match up never occurred, and it was won by a rank outsider (10th in Qualifying Round), that is why the Bonus Points system was used in 1936-39. Norbold - OK, I bow to your superior knowledge regarding 1935. So I think we need to let other people catch up, but so far we have: 1928 - Frank Arthur 1929 - Frank Arthur 1930 - Vic Huxley 1931 - Vic Huxley 1932 - Vic Huxley 1933 - Tom Farndon 1934 - Tom Farndon 1935 - Bluey Wilkinson 1936 - Eric Langton (ArnieG, Bobbath and Rob) or Bluey Wilkinson (Norbold) 1937 - Jack Milne 1938 - Bluey Wilkinson 1939 - Cordy Milne 1946 - Jack Parker 1947 - Vic Duggan 1948 - Vic Duggan 1949 - Jack Parker 1950 - Graham Warren 1951 - Jack Young (Rob / Norbold) or Aub Lawson (Bobbath) 1952 - Jack Young 1953 - Jack Young 1954 - Ronnie Moore 1955 - Ronnie Moore Any disagreements with any of the above? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BOBBATH 467 Posted March 25, 2010 Great summary mate what are your thoughts from 1956 on??Would be interested thanx for taking the trouble to summarise this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucifer sam 3,953 Posted March 25, 2010 (edited) Great summary mate what are your thoughts from 1956 on??Would be interested thanx for taking the trouble to summarise this Bobbath, I think it was yours, mine, Norbold's & ArnieG's opinions that I previously summarised - Cardrew had just quoted it. Interesting that this thread has kicked back into life. Of course, in the meantime, Backtrack have played this game themselves in regards to the 70s & 80s. All the best Rob Edited March 25, 2010 by lucifer sam Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted January 16, 2012 ok, to bump this thread (as it has some relevance to another discussion), and complete the list, the rough consensus seemed to be: 1928 - Frank Arthur 1929 - Frank Arthur 1930 - Vic Huxley 1931 - Vic Huxley 1932 - Vic Huxley 1933 - Tom Farndon 1934 - Tom Farndon 1935 - Bluey Wilkinson 1936 - Eric Langton (ArnieG, Bobbath and Rob) or Bluey Wilkinson (Norbold) 1937 - Jack Milne 1938 - Bluey Wilkinson 1939 - Cordy Milne 1946 - Jack Parker 1947 - Vic Duggan 1948 - Vic Duggan 1949 - Jack Parker 1950 - Graham Warren 1951 - Jack Young (Rob / Norbold) or Aub Lawson (Bobbath) 1952 - Jack Young 1953 - Jack Young 1954 - Ronnie Moore 1955 - Ronnie Moore 1956- Ove Fundin 1957- Ove Fundin 1958- Ove Fundin 1959- Ove Fundin 1960- Ove Fundin 1961-Ove Fundin 1962-Peter Craven 1963-Ove Fundin 1964 - Bjorn Knutsson 1965 – Barry Briggs 1966 - Barry Briggs 1967 - Barry Briggs 1968 - Ivan Mauger 1969 - Ivan Mauger 1970 - Ivan Mauger 1971 - Ivan Mauger 1972 - Ole Olsen 1973 - Ivan Mauger 1974 - Ivan Mauger 1975 - Ivan Mauger 1976 - Peter Collins 1977 – Peter Collins 1978 - Ole Olsen 1979 – Michael Lee 1980- Dave Jessup 1981 Bruce Penhall 1982 Bruce Penhall 1983 Hans Nielsen 1984 Erik Gundersen 1985 Erik Gundersen 1986 Hans Nielsen 1987 Hans Nielsen 1988 Hans Nielsen 1989 Hans Nielsen 1990 Hans Nielsen 1991 Hans Nielsen 1992 Per Jonsson 1993 Sam Ermolenko 1994 Hans Nielsen Hopefully that’s a fair representation of the debate, certainly the following years had no clear consensus: 62- Craven or Fundin 65- Briggs or Plechanov 73 – Mauger or Michanek 75 – Mauger, Olsen or Crump 76 – Collins or Mauger 77 – Collins or Olsen 83- Neilsen or Gundersen, Lee, Sigalos, Sanders, Carter? 85 – Nielsen or Gundersen 93 – Ermolenko or Nielsen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted January 17, 2012 ok, to bump this thread (as it has some relevance to another discussion), and complete the list, the rough consensus seemed to be: 1928 - Frank Arthur 1929 - Frank Arthur 1930 - Vic Huxley 1931 - Vic Huxley 1932 - Vic Huxley 1933 - Tom Farndon 1934 - Tom Farndon 1935 - Bluey Wilkinson 1936 - Eric Langton (ArnieG, Bobbath and Rob) or Bluey Wilkinson (Norbold) 1937 - Jack Milne 1938 - Bluey Wilkinson 1939 - Cordy Milne 1946 - Jack Parker 1947 - Vic Duggan 1948 - Vic Duggan 1949 - Jack Parker 1950 - Graham Warren 1951 - Jack Young (Rob / Norbold) or Aub Lawson (Bobbath) 1952 - Jack Young 1953 - Jack Young 1954 - Ronnie Moore 1955 - Ronnie Moore 1956- Ove Fundin 1957- Ove Fundin 1958- Ove Fundin 1959- Ove Fundin 1960- Ove Fundin 1961-Ove Fundin 1962-Peter Craven 1963-Ove Fundin 1964 - Bjorn Knutsson 1965 – Barry Briggs 1966 - Barry Briggs 1967 - Barry Briggs 1968 - Ivan Mauger 1969 - Ivan Mauger 1970 - Ivan Mauger 1971 - Ivan Mauger 1972 - Ole Olsen 1973 - Ivan Mauger 1974 - Ivan Mauger 1975 - Ivan Mauger 1976 - Peter Collins 1977 – Peter Collins 1978 - Ole Olsen 1979 – Michael Lee 1980- Dave Jessup 1981 Bruce Penhall 1982 Bruce Penhall 1983 Hans Nielsen 1984 Erik Gundersen 1985 Erik Gundersen 1986 Hans Nielsen 1987 Hans Nielsen 1988 Hans Nielsen 1989 Hans Nielsen 1990 Hans Nielsen 1991 Hans Nielsen 1992 Per Jonsson 1993 Sam Ermolenko 1994 Hans Nielsen Hopefully that’s a fair representation of the debate, certainly the following years had no clear consensus: 62- Craven or Fundin 65- Briggs or Plechanov 73 – Mauger or Michanek 75 – Mauger, Olsen or Crump 76 – Collins or Mauger 77 – Collins or Olsen 83- Neilsen or Gundersen, Lee, Sigalos, Sanders, Carter? 85 – Nielsen or Gundersen 93 – Ermolenko or Nielsen Great debate and is very hard to call without really thinking off my head. my view for what its worth 1973 Mauger 1974 Mauger 1975 i agree 76.Collins 77.Collins 78,Mauger Olsen or Autrey 79,Mauger 80.Penhall or Jessup 83.Lee Nielsen These were the few i picked that if had been the gp format thats how i felt it would of gone the only doubt is Michanek maybe in 73. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted January 17, 2012 I did a compete run down on years from 1955 to 1983 how i thought the champions would of been in a g.p. format .I have to eat humble pie and was wrong oh well and it is only my opinion on memory imformation i have on those years league form [ect]individual meetings 1955 Craven 56 Fundin 57 Briggs 58 Fundin 59 Fundin 60 Fundin 61 Fundin 62 Craven 63 Briggs 64 Briggs 65 Briggs 66 Briggs 67 Briggs 68 Mauger 69 Mauger 70 Mauger 71 Mauger 72 Olsen 73 Mauger 74 Mauger 75 Mauger 76 Collins 77 Collins 78 Olsen 79 Mauger 80 Penhall 81 Penhall 82 Penhall 83 Lee TOTAL titles Mauger 8 Olsen 2 Briggs 6 Fundin 5 Collins 2 Craven 2 Penhall 3 Lee 1 The years debatable were in (55 )Briggs and Moore close) (56 )Moore and Craven close) (65 ) Plechanov and Knutsson close) (72) Olsen and Mauger close (73) Mauger and Michanek close) (78) Olsen and Autrey close ) (79) Mauger, Lee, Autrey banned? close) (80) Jessup and Penhall close ) (83)Lee and Nielsen close) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,991 Posted January 17, 2012 I did a compete run down on years from 1955 to 1983 how i thought the champions would of been in a g.p. format .I have to eat humble pie and was wrong oh well and it is only my opinion on memory imformation i have on those years league form [ect]individual meetings Nice one sidney.Not often someone here admits to being wrong.It is all opinions of course,but no way could i see how you were getting your figures on the other threads Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted January 17, 2012 Nice one sidney.Not often someone here admits to being wrong.It is all opinions of course,but no way could i see how you were getting your figures on the other threads Dosent matter Iris does it, enjoyed being wrong which i am frequently have learned something .As much as i liked the old way FINALS how many titles would of Nielsen WON in the g.p series 10? i might and to reconsider where i place him now in the all time greats? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted January 17, 2012 I did a compete run down on years from 1955 to 1983 how i thought the champions would of been in a g.p. format .I have to eat humble pie and was wrong oh well and it is only my opinion on memory imformation i have on those years league form [ect]individual meetings 1955 Craven 56 Fundin 57 Briggs 58 Fundin 59 Fundin 60 Fundin 61 Fundin 62 Craven 63 Briggs 64 Briggs 65 Briggs 66 Briggs 67 Briggs 68 Mauger 69 Mauger 70 Mauger 71 Mauger 72 Olsen 73 Mauger 74 Mauger 75 Mauger 76 Collins 77 Collins 78 Olsen 79 Mauger 80 Penhall 81 Penhall 82 Penhall 83 Lee TOTAL titles Mauger 8 Olsen 2 Briggs 6 Fundin 5 Collins 2 Craven 2 Penhall 3 Lee 1 The years So, 5 extra titles for the Fundin/Olsen/Briggs/Fundin,quadrumvirate not the twenty you mentioned earlier. Shame you're admitting you were wrong (or tongue in cheek) really, as twenty would have meant they would have won between them every year from 1951-1988, I was particularly looking forward to your explanation about how Nielsen missed out 1984-88 (forget the world titles, did he do it against Fundin/Mauger/Olsen), whether it was Mauger or Olsen beating Penhall in 81/82, and why you reckoned the novice Fundin or Briggs were winning ahead of Young and Moore in the early 50s. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted January 17, 2012 So, 5 extra titles for the Fundin/Olsen/Briggs/Fundin,quadrumvirate not the twenty you mentioned earlier. Shame you're admitting you were wrong (or tongue in cheek) really, as twenty would have meant they would have won between them every year from 1951-1988, I was particularly looking forward to your explanation about how Nielsen missed out 1984-88 (forget the world titles, did he do it against Fundin/Mauger/Olsen), whether it was Mauger or Olsen beating Penhall in 81/82, and why you reckoned the novice Fundin or Briggs were winning ahead of Young and Moore in the early 50s. Your post is rather muddled you have lost me on a few points .I was wrong not a problem with that, Moore i dont think would of won over 11 rounds also Knutsson as well.Also as great as Nielsen was would he of got the better of Penhall? and the best version of Lee ?over 11 rounds who Knows. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted January 17, 2012 muddled? Just saying that if you had been right about the twenty extra titles, this would have meant those four riders winning every year from 1951-1988, and that I was looking forward to you explaining your logic for the above years as to why they would ahve been champion? Not sure what was unclear? If you don't think Moore would have won in 54, who do you think? Nielsen would have still won GPs if Penhall/Lee had stuck around, though not as many as 10 I would expect. Penhall in 81 was as consistent as Nielsen at his peak, I can't think of a season in which Lee was as consistently good as the Nielsen of the last 80s. If anything, the presence of Penhall/Lee in GPs may well have meant Gundersen was never crowned WC. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted January 17, 2012 muddled? Just saying that if you had been right about the twenty extra titles, this would have meant those four riders winning every year from 1951-1988, and that I was looking forward to you explaining your logic for the above years as to why they would ahve been champion? Not sure what was unclear? If you don't think Moore would have won in 54, who do you think? Nielsen would have still won GPs if Penhall/Lee had stuck around, though not as many as 10 I would expect. Penhall in 81 was as consistent as Nielsen at his peak, I can't think of a season in which Lee was as consistently good as the Nielsen of the last 80s. If anything, the presence of Penhall/Lee in GPs may well have meant Gundersen was never crowned WC. I only did it from1955 , and you are right maybe Gundersen would not of won a title?(1977,78,79,80,81,83 i would say in my opinion Lee was a better rider than Nielsen 82 Lee was awful still averaged about 9.70.Those years of Lee and Penhall would of been good anough to compete with Nielsen i know Lee never really feared Hans, Penhall he said was his big danger.1984 till 1990 all NIELSEN I would say Erik would of had a job to stay with him over 11rounds. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted January 17, 2012 well of course Lee/Penhall wouldn't have feared Hans, as Nielsen was nowhere near his peak when Lee/Penhall were at theirs (83 is the only year when Nielsen/Lee were anywhere near their peaks at the same time, and in both cases still about three/four years off their respective peaks). You mention Lee's average, but he never averaged over 11, which Hans did countless times. In fact, I'm not sure Hans averaged below 10 any year in the 80s? ] Without wanting to re-open the "natural talent" debate, I'd suggest Penhall/Lee were both more gifted than Hans (or possiblly just earlier developers), but neither produced the sustained excellence which he did (and which is the key under the GP system). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blackbird 54 Posted January 17, 2012 76 – Collins or Mauger 77 – Collins or Olsen no way Mauger in 76 and Collins a million miles away the best in 77 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted January 18, 2012 no way Mauger in 76 and Collins a million miles away the best in 77 well of course Lee/Penhall wouldn't have feared Hans, as Nielsen was nowhere near his peak when Lee/Penhall were at theirs (83 is the only year when Nielsen/Lee were anywhere near their peaks at the same time, and in both cases still about three/four years off their respective peaks). You mention Lee's average, but he never averaged over 11, which Hans did countless times. In fact, I'm not sure Hans averaged below 10 any year in the 80s? ] Without wanting to re-open the "natural talent" debate, I'd suggest Penhall/Lee were both more gifted than Hans (or possiblly just earlier developers), but neither produced the sustained excellence which he did (and which is the key under the GP system). When Nielsen got his 11 plus averages the level had dropped quite alot, then .And by the way Lee was not a old man when that joke ban happened 24/25 and at the end of 83 murdered Nielsen in the Pride of the east .Also you have got the word PEAK wrong because Penhall only had 5 years in Britain he would of improved his confidence sky high after winning his titles Penhall when he retired was more consistent than Hans.Nielsen would of never got a 11 plus average with a Penhall a fit Sigalos Lee Sanders Carter Gundersen Knudsen S,Moran around you overplay the word PEAK and figures. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
