World Champions That Never Were

[stratton 1,491]

You obviously saw him more than I did, but in all competitions his results were worse in 84 than 83. Clearly started 85 on fire, but rode only a handful of meetings. Personally I think he was better suited to world finsls, where he generally lifted himself, rather than gps. All conjecture and opinion,but personally I think there were better riders in the same era who also failed to win the title.

I think the age thing is really important here, he was always world class on his day and held his own easily in world company.But he really got his act together, and i feel he would of been strong in a GP format as Crump at his peak certainly would of as well Sanders for me had as much chance as say Carter of winning a world title.

[waiheke1 4,295]

Carter would have been in with a real chance in a gp series in 82, arguably 85 as well, and a medalist in 81 (if he was in the series). In 83 he would have arguably had about the same chance of sanders for a medal. I can't think of any year where you could argue sanders was likely to have taken the crown, though appreciate he still could have had another 5 years at the top. For me though, I'd rate him just behind carter, sigalos, s moran, knudsen and jessup - very good riders of that era who didn't win a title.

[stratton 1,491]

Carter would have been in with a real chance in a gp series in 82, arguably 85 as well, and a medalist in 81 (if he was in the series). In 83 he would have arguably had about the same chance of sanders for a medal. I can't think of any year where you could argue sanders was likely to have taken the crown, though appreciate he still could have had another 5 years at the top. For me though, I'd rate him just behind carter, sigalos, s moran, knudsen and jessup - very good riders of that era who didn't win a title.

I personally would rate Sanders only behind Sigalos in that group,Carter for me never showed me the consistency or temperament to ever win over say twelve rounds.A one off final maybe,certainly at Hyde Rd but over a period not so sure. Lee,Sigalos,Sanders for me all would of been a threat to the Danes,Carter i am not so sure i recon he could of been like a KK of today similar brilliant on his day. Edited August 28, 2014 by sidney

[waiheke1 4,295]

I personally would rate Sanders only behind Sigalos in that group,Carter for me never showed me the consistency or temperament to ever win over say twelve rounds.A one off final maybe,certainly at Hyde Rd but over a period not so sure. Lee,Sigalos,Sanders for me all would of been a threat to the Danes,Carter i am not so sure i recon he could of been like a KK of today similar brilliant on his day.

Not sure you can accuse carter of lacking consistency. Look at 82. Donestically averaged over 11, and won blrc. He finished on the podium in all four meetings qualifying for the world final. He was top point scorer in tests fir England agsinst both usa and denmark. Scored a max in the wtc inter continental final. He was the most consistent rider in the world that year. Edited August 28, 2014 by waihekeaces1

[The White Knight 9,039]

I honestly believe that if Phil Crump had held his 'Four Valve' back until the World Final - he would have won it. He rode it too early.

 

I thought Phil Crump was a superb Rider.

[BluTiger 21,700]

I honestly believe that if Phil Crump had held his 'Four Valve' back until the World Final - he would have won it. He rode it too early.

 

I thought Phil Crump was a superb Rider.

Your right WK, Phil was superb and as hard as nails on the track. His battles with Tiger Louis at Foxhall were great races to witness, and no holds barred from two warriors of the shale...

[stratton 1,491]

Not sure you can accuse carter of lacking consistency. Look at 82. Donestically averaged over 11, and won blrc. He finished on the podium in all four meetings qualifying for the world final. He was top point scorer in tests fir England agsinst both usa and denmark. Scored a max in the wtc inter continental final. He was the most consistent rider in the world that year.

For one year only in a few other years in the test matches he was a mixed bag.i know he was unlucky with injury bigtime.But he never struck me as being a GP type,good at times but overall was never willing to be second best pick up points and move on to the next race.He was unlucky in 82 but dress it up as much as you want his temperament let him him down if he had settled for second he might have got a run off.? I was a big fan of his but in his era Lee,Nielsen,Gundersen,Penhall,Sigalos, i rated ahead of him and Sanders and Moran would be in the mix and most of them i have named i believe would of been or were better than him over a GP Series.

[waiheke1 4,295]

In 81 and 82 carter was better than all those you named (except penhall obviously). The danes overtook him in 83 and went on to dominate. Lee was clearly vastly more talented than carter. Carter was better than sigalos 81-83, but sigalos started 84 on fire, before both had thir seasons curtailed - siggy was some talent, and could well have become world champ - but on the seasons they raced I think carter would have finished ahesd every year. S moran I rate neck and neck with carter, in 84 he would have challrnged the danes in a gp series, as would both he and kenny in 85. Sanders had a couple of very good years 79/80 and agsin 83/84. But though all the above riders were 5 plus years younger, I would argue they were all riding at a better level than billy.

[stratton 1,491]

In 81 and 82 carter was better than all those you named (except penhall obviously). The danes overtook him in 83 and went on to dominate. Lee was clearly vastly more talented than carter. Carter was better than sigalos 81-83, but sigalos started 84 on fire, before both had thir seasons curtailed - siggy was some talent, and could well have become world champ - but on the seasons they raced I think carter would have finished ahesd every year. S moran I rate neck and neck with carter, in 84 he would have challrnged the danes in a gp series, as would both he and kenny in 85. Sanders had a couple of very good years 79/80 and agsin 83/84. But though all the above riders were 5 plus years younger, I would argue they were all riding at a better level than billy.

Cant agree with that Sigalos was brilliant in some of the tests and the one i saw beat Nielsen from the back in the open at White City for me would beat Carter six times out of ten.Penhall is the key here if he had stayed around i don't believe the Danes would have one as many titles and history could of been written differently who knows.

[wealdstone 3,454]

Brian Crutcher

[waiheke1 4,295]

Cant agree with that Sigalos was brilliant in some of the tests and the one i saw beat Nielsen from the back in the open at White City for me would beat Carter six times out of ten.Penhall is the key here if he had stayed around i don't believe the Danes would have one as many titles and history could of been written differently who knows.

I think we are actually pretty much in agreement sid. I'm convinced penhall would have won more title, and that would have meant the danes winning less.

Sigalos in my view was a greater nnatural talent than carter and both had excellent equipment.

Sigalos in 80 was some way ahead of c arter, but carter was comfortably the better rider in 81. 82 was arguably the best seadon either had - in a gp series its likely carter would have been battling penhall for the title, and sigslos battling Nielsen for 3rd. Both were slightly disappointing in 83, and were arguably overtake n by theDanes and a resurgent lee. BBoth started 84 brightly before beinh injured. Carter would have had a real shot of winning in 85 but for injury, but if both had continued beyond there sigalos may have been the better bet if breaking the Danish dominance. Head to head in msjor meetings (tests, wtc and workd pairs, world finals and qualifying meetings and blrc) they actually come out even at 23-23, though sigalos tally is boosted by beating carter 4-0 in 1980, carter hsving the dlight edge in subsequent seasons.

[stratton 1,491]

I think we are actually pretty much in agreement sid. I'm convinced penhall would have won more title, and that would have meant the danes winning less.

Sigalos in my view was a greater nnatural talent than carter and both had excellent equipment.

Sigalos in 80 was some way ahead of c arter, but carter was comfortably the better rider in 81. 82 was arguably the best seadon either had - in a gp series its likely carter would have been battling penhall for the title, and sigslos battling Nielsen for 3rd. Both were slightly disappointing in 83, and were arguably overtake n by theDanes and a resurgent lee. BBoth started 84 brightly before beinh injured. Carter would have had a real shot of winning in 85 but for injury, but if both had continued beyond there sigalos may have been the better bet if breaking the Danish dominance. Head to head in msjor meetings (tests, wtc and workd pairs, world finals and qualifying meetings and blrc) they actually come out even at 23-23, though sigalos tally is boosted by beating carter 4-0 in 1980, carter hsving the dlight edge in subsequent seasons.

Fair play your stats well are spot on eaces" as usual, we are on the same wavelength. Carter you know i rated highly i know you did because you see more of him ( lucky sod) than me.That era really was a decent one some special riders around we were both lucky to watch a few.

[The White Knight 9,039]

Fair play your stats well are spot on eaces" as usual, we are on the same wavelength. Carter you know i rated highly i know you did because you see more of him ( lucky sod) than me.That era really was a decent one some special riders around we were both lucky to watch a few.

I agree with that sidney - a truly GREAT time to be watching Speedway.

 

No 'rose coloured spectacles' here, just the plain truth.

[fatface 2,554]

I actually don't think there is anybody who didn't win it who WOULD DEFINITELY have won it under different circumstances. As a student of the history of the sport and far too young to be witness, probably Jack Parker and Tom Farndon are the best shouts.

 

As for more recent times, Tomasz Gollob had the title of "best rider never to win...." absolutely stitched up until he went and won it. He really blew that one ;-)

 

Can't go with Billy Sanders or some other names mentioned. I thought he punched above his weight getting on the rostrum. 1984 was his big chance: virtually guaranteed to be a new champion, relatively inexperienced field, big names missing/injured (Carter,Lee,Sigalos) and he was a renouned track expert. He didn't do very well though did he? I'd have Carter, Sigalos, Morton, S Moran, Knudsen all above him from that era alone.

[stratton 1,491]

I actually don't think there is anybody who didn't win it who WOULD DEFINITELY have won it under different circumstances. As a student of the history of the sport and far too young to be witness, probably Jack Parker and Tom Farndon are the best shouts.

As for more recent times, Tomasz Gollob had the title of "best rider never to win...." absolutely stitched up until he went and won it. He really blew that one ;-)

Can't go with Billy Sanders or some other names mentioned. I thought he punched above his weight getting on the rostrum. 1984 was his big chance: virtually guaranteed to be a new champion, relatively inexperienced field, big names missing/injured (Carter,Lee,Sigalos) and he was a renouned track expert. He didn't do very well though did he? I'd have Carter, Sigalos, Morton, S Moran, Knudsen all above him from that era alone.

Morton not a chance he never ever had a chance at any given time to be world champion in my view.What a great rider though,great value at Hyde Rd superb not as good as PC though he would not be above any of those you have mentioned because of his gating.