lucifer sam 3,953 Posted August 29, 2009 Ermolenko was so good in 93 that he would have won it that year under a GP format too Ermolenko's league form that year was excellent, but could he have beaten Nielsen over a 11-round GP series? - I very much doubt it. Nielsen was a fairly easy winner of the first GP series in 1995, despite being past his prime of 1983-1991. The GP series is all about consistency and Nielsen is the probably most consistent rider of all-time. Ivan Mauger is of the opinion that had a GP series been introduced in 1990 rather than in 1995, then Nielsen would have won at least 7 World titles. I can't disagree with that. All the best Rob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,114 Posted August 29, 2009 Ivan Mauger is of the opinion that had a GP series been introduced in 1990 rather than in 1995, then Nielsen would have won at least 7 World titles. I can't disagree with that. Food for thought here... If the GP had been introduced in 1936 instead of 1995 and the GP had re-started immediately after the War, how many titles would Bluey Wilkinson, Vic Duggan, Jack Young, Ove Fundin and Ivan Mauger have won (for example). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,362 Posted August 29, 2009 If the GP had been around in the 80s and 90s it's quite possible that Hans Neilsen would have won every year from 1984 to 1995 - and perhaps 1983 as well. Maybe Gundersen might have nicked one or possibly two, but in terms of consistency nobody was close to Neilsen over that period, and some of the mistakes he made in Finals would have been barely noticed over an entire series. I guess Dave Jessup's engine failure in 1978 makes him a possible "World Champ that never was" - but I'm not convinced he would have won. And Les Collins might have won in 1982 had Bruce Penhall either not knocked off Kenny Carter or been excluded as he should have been. And, had the race been re-run without Penhall, then Carter might have been World Champ. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
T.N.T. 355 Posted August 30, 2009 (edited) Well, easier if you weren't the best rider in the world. Possibly harder if you were - as Hans Neilsen would probably testify. There are many riders who probably wouldn't have made World Champ under the GP system. I doubt even riders like Ermolenko, Michanek and Jan O. Pedersen would have Anders Mitchaneck could well have been as he averaged 11+ in the 73 season while Sam was quite frankly brilliant after coming back from his big crash and 93 was a brilliant year for him, but he did end up the season with a broken leg ! Ermolenko's league form that year was excellent, but could he have beaten Nielsen over a 11-round GP series? - I very much doubt it. Nielsen was a fairly easy winner of the first GP series in 1995, despite being past his prime of 1983-1991. The GP series is all about consistency and Nielsen is the probably most consistent rider of all-time. Nielsen for me would have won the title virtually ever year from the early 80's to the mid 90's had the GP's been in place which casts more shadows over the fact that maybe Havelock, Jonsson, O'Pedersen and even Gundersen may not have won the title had it been over a season. There are loads of riders that could have been World Champion over the years going back to Bill Kitchen, Ron Johnston, Vic Huxley, Jack Parker etc, but in the near 40 years I have been watching I would nominate as could have been World Champions on a one-off night as ........ Dave Jessup Leigh Adams Tomasz Gollob Billy Sanders Dennis Sigalos weird how an Anglian theme runs through these names ! Edited August 30, 2009 by T.N.T. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,362 Posted August 30, 2009 Anders Mitchaneck could well have been as he averaged 11+ in the 73 season while Sam was quite frankly brilliant after coming back from his big crash and 93 was a brilliant year for him, Michanek only scored 6 in the 1973 World Final though, which must be some sort of indication. For anyone other than Gundersen to have won a Grand Prix World title when Hans Neilsen was at his prime would have been a miracle. I doubt even Per Jonsson would have won one - and Per Jonsson was truly brilliant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,989 Posted August 30, 2009 I don't think it is quite so easy to say "look at his league form".Winning a title no matter if it is in a GP series or a one meeting title need bottle to get past the "Oh i am in with a chance of winning this thing" scenario.Lot's of riders choke in that situation,as do other sportsmen and women.I think Hans had a bit of a psychological problem at first which would have been there in a GP series just as much as the one day finals.Even he was on record back in the 80s as saying he didn't like big tracks.And in a GP series how many of the tracks would have been of a fair size back then? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,362 Posted August 30, 2009 I think Neilsen's problem was that, at a crucial point in the World Final, he'd get into a paddy and over-ride. Even when he finally won the title he did this - and was let off by a shocking refereeing decision after bringing Knudsen off. In a GP he'd have just plugged away scoring points without having to deal with such do-or-die crucial situations. We could have been looking at a 10 times World Champ if the GP had been around then in it's current form. I'm convinced of that in my own little world. If the GP had been around in its previous form with the KO rounds I think it's more likely he might have blown a few. Gundersen might have had a bit of an edge in those with his "big race" mentality. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,989 Posted August 30, 2009 Yes an important point about what system of GP people are assuming would have been used. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Parsloes 1928 nearly 495 Posted August 30, 2009 Food for thought here... If the GP had been introduced in 1936 instead of 1995 and the GP had re-started immediately after the War, how many titles would Bluey Wilkinson, Vic Duggan, Jack Young, Ove Fundin and Ivan Mauger have won (for example). Hmm, well in Bluey's case surely not that many, as sadly he was dead before 1940 was up.. You'd obviously know this as I know you've read Dr. Belton's excellent biography...!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,114 Posted August 30, 2009 Hmm, well in Bluey's case surely not that many, as sadly he was dead before 1940 was up.. True. But he could well have won all three pre-War finals. You'd obviously know this as I know you've read Dr. Belton's excellent biography...!! Don't get me started! I'd rather let you drive me round London than read any more of Dr Belton's books! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmartin 7 Posted August 30, 2009 Wasnt really a "one off" was it. I mean there was qualifiers to be won to actually be there. So the riders that did take part in the "one off" final were all there on merit. Shame the same cant be said for todays GP series. Worrying this - Snyper1010 - I find myself agreeing with you 100%. You are absolutely SPOT ON!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snyper1010 24 Posted August 31, 2009 Worrying this - Snyper1010 - I find myself agreeing with you 100%. You are absolutely SPOT ON!! Im glad we finally agree Ian. Going off topic a little here do you (everyone as a whole) think that the GP series makes somone less of a champion than a on the night winner of a world final? Giving that the pressure as mentioned is reduced due to it being a season long event and not a one off. I hope im getting my point across here. Do you think Nikki P would be 3 times World Champ under the old system, or do you think that he would have allowed his hot temper ruin a one of final? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucifer sam 3,953 Posted August 31, 2009 Food for thought here... If the GP had been introduced in 1936 instead of 1995 and the GP had re-started immediately after the War, how many titles would Bluey Wilkinson, Vic Duggan, Jack Young, Ove Fundin and Ivan Mauger have won (for example). Norbold, but a GP system was used in 1936, 1937 & 1938, albeit one with a bias towards the final round at Wembley. All the best Rob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Blanchard 19 Posted August 31, 2009 Has to be Tom Farndon for me. Agree with you Snyps about the 'one off' was hardly that with all the rounds etc spot on mate. A lot of posters think that it was only about one night. Have not worked it out in details, but I am sure Ove Fundin finished on the podium for 10 consecutive years so his five championships under a GP system would have been many more than that, and not one sponsor either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,362 Posted August 31, 2009 Has to be Tom Farndon for me. Agree with you Snyps about the 'one off' was hardly that with all the rounds etc spot on mate. A lot of posters think that it was only about one night. Have not worked it out in details, but I am sure Ove Fundin finished on the podium for 10 consecutive years so his five championships under a GP system would have been many more than that, and not one sponsor either. He wouldn't have won it in 1967 though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
