iris123 20,993 Posted October 21, 2011 Like you BFD, I was rather surprised at first at the tone adopted towards me after my mention of how I was treated by the manager of another site. Now I realise, this guy is the co-manager of the same site, so adopting a superior attitude seems commonplace with them. They tend to think that all posters are full-time researchers rather than just speedway followers who use these sites to try and learn more about speedway history. When we come up with something their reaction is to condemn people as armchair researchers relying on old copies of Speedway Star for our facts and maybe it is because we don't all have the time to spend at places where old newspapers are kept. I still like the theory that was put across in Colin Stewart's book about speedway's start because it covers a lot of those very early beginnings in 1923 at Maitland and is a good read to find out more of Johnnie Hoskins involving with that particular period. It seems however that history sites don't like me sometimes because while one of them has called me negative the other has twice given me public warnings so what about that.So far I've still to be convinced that Hoskins claims are wrong and with Colin Stewart and Bill Crampton putting good material to back this great promoter who were there years before those who want to belittle him were born. It's the men on thr ground who count and these former riders seem to have put a strong supporting factual case in Johnnie's favour. Thanks for some support BFD, it is appreciated by me. I just cannot wait for the article by son Ian Hoskins to back his dad's rightful place in history. Sorry I've gone on a bit here. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Surely it isn't about liking a theory,it is about what is correct.And you say you support the words of those who were there over those who weren't born.Yet you can't wait to read the words of Ian Hoskins to back up the theory you so like about his father.Sorry,but it all seems a bit like picking out things that suit you,rather than wanting to really find out the truth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mickthemuppet 976 Posted October 21, 2011 (edited) Surely it isn't about liking a theory,it is about what is correct.And you say you support the words of those who were there over those who weren't born.Yet you can't wait to read the words of Ian Hoskins to back up the theory you so like about his father.Sorry,but it all seems a bit like picking out things that suit you,rather than wanting to really find out the truth Perhaps I should have said that my posting about West Maitland were taken from a book called "Speedway Walkabout" by a certaiin Johnny Hoskins. Perhaps you should all read it and you might understand the topic a little bit more. I would think he would have a better idea than anybody else about what happenedce. Would that be enough evidence for you Olddon Edited October 21, 2011 by mickthemuppet Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olddon 7 Posted October 22, 2011 Surely it isn't about liking a theory,it is about what is correct.And you say you support the words of those who were there over those who weren't born.Yet you can't wait to read the words of Ian Hoskins to back up the theory you so like about his father.Sorry,but it all seems a bit like picking out things that suit you,rather than wanting to really find out the truth At the moment I'm prepared to support Ian Hoskins because I feel his article will be based upon papers belonging to Johnnie for the period under debate. JACK KENN, ERITH, KENT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olddon 7 Posted October 22, 2011 Perhaps I should have said that my posting about West Maitland were taken from a book called "Speedway Walkabout" by a certaiin Johnny Hoskins. Perhaps you should all read it and you might understand the topic a little bit more. I would think he would have a better idea than anybody else about what happenedce. Would that be enough evidence for you Olddon Pity that you didn't make it clear in your post because it looked as though it was stuff you were solely putting forward and caused everyone to go off in the wrong direction in response. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,116 Posted October 22, 2011 A sure sign that someone's losing an argument on here is when they attack the Poster, not the Post, Norbold. Says the man who has consistently done nothing else since this thread started! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,116 Posted October 22, 2011 So far I've still to be convinced that Hoskins claims are wrong and with Colin Stewart and Bill Crampton putting good material to back this great promoter who were there years before those who want to belittle him were born. Please tell me who is trying to "belittle" Johnnie Hoskins? Johnnie Hoskins was a great speedway promoter and character; a man who did a tremendous amount to popularise the sport. No-one disputes that. What is in doubt, however, is his claim that the meeting on 15 December 1923 was something new and that he "invented" speedway. No-one doubts the meeting took place. But it was just another in a long line of similar meeting held throughout Australia in the late teens and early 20s. The idea that there was anything different about the 15 December meeting is what is in dispute. And if you think that we should listen to the people who were actually there rather than later historians, even though these people who were there are recalling events from 40 or 50 years later (and in Ian Hoskins' case, not there at all), why are you so opposed to reading the contemporary newspaper report of just two days after the event, which surely must have the greatest claim to immediacy and therefore accuracy of anyone or anything? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,993 Posted October 22, 2011 Now i see on the NSS heritage wall thread,we have someone suggesting that Hoskins is honoured becaue he "brought speedway to this country".Surely the honour should go to a few others,rather than Hoskins.AJ Hunting for instance.As far as i know Johnnie had nothing to do with any of the meetings claimed as the first speedway meeting in Britain.But the myth goes on.....and it isn't anything against Hoskins to want the real people honoured Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olddon 7 Posted October 22, 2011 Please tell me who is trying to "belittle" Johnnie Hoskins? Johnnie Hoskins was a great speedway promoter and character; a man who did a tremendous amount to popularise the sport. No-one disputes that. What is in doubt, however, is his claim that the meeting on 15 December 1923 was something new and that he "invented" speedway. No-one doubts the meeting took place. But it was just another in a long line of similar meeting held throughout Australia in the late teens and early 20s. The idea that there was anything different about the 15 December meeting is what is in dispute. And if you think that we should listen to the people who were actually there rather than later historians, even though these people who were there are recalling events from 40 or 50 years later (and in Ian Hoskins' case, not there at all), why are you so opposed to reading the contemporary newspaper report of just two days after the event, which surely must have the greatest claim to immediacy and therefore accuracy of anyone or anything? I have diverted to Wikipedia in my research and found this and I also give the link for people to find more detailed commentary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_speedway#History “The first speedway meeting, as reported in the Maitland Mercury newspaper, took place on 15 December 1923 at the Maitland Showground in the Lower Hunter Valley, New South Wales, Australia. There is evidence that there may have been earlier meetings in Australia and broadsiding on small dirt tracks had been practised in America since before World War I.” “Originating in Maitland, New South Wales, Australia, in 1923.” JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olddon 7 Posted October 22, 2011 Now i see on the NSS heritage wall thread,we have someone suggesting that Hoskins is honoured becaue he "brought speedway to this country".Surely the honour should go to a few others,rather than Hoskins.AJ Hunting for instance.As far as i know Johnnie had nothing to do with any of the meetings claimed as the first speedway meeting in Britain.But the myth goes on.....and it isn't anything against Hoskins to want the real people honoured Can you please give the Link for NSS Heritage as I would like to see the thread you mention. Thank you. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,993 Posted October 22, 2011 I have diverted to Wikipedia in my research and found this and I also give the link for people to find more detailed commentary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_speedway#History “The first speedway meeting, as reported in the Maitland Mercury newspaper, took place on 15 December 1923 at the Maitland Showground in the Lower Hunter Valley, New South Wales, Australia. There is evidence that there may have been earlier meetings in Australia and broadsiding on small dirt tracks had been practised in America since before World War I.” “Originating in Maitland, New South Wales, Australia, in 1923.” JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Wikepedia isn't 100% correct on these things though.It relies on people putting the correct info on AND other checking and correcting false info.I once put a link on here to a Wiki page that stated Custom House stadium was built by the one and only Johnnie Hoskins.Of course it wasn't.Hoskins involvement with West Ham started after the stadium was built and after West Ham had been racing.I think it was Norbold who corrected that Wiki page The Heritage wall is in the General speedway section of this site Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olddon 7 Posted October 22, 2011 The Heritage wall is in the General speedway section of this site Thank you but I cannot find the Heritage wall anywhere. I even did a site search on here and acme up with "No results found for 'heritage wall'" Can you give me for guidance please? JACK KEEN. ERITH, Kent Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olddon 7 Posted October 22, 2011 Wikepedia isn't 100% correct on these things though.It relies on people putting the correct info on AND other checking and correcting false info.I once put a link on here to a Wiki page that stated Custom House stadium was built by the one and only Johnnie Hoskins.Of course it wasn't.Hoskins involvement with West Ham started after the stadium was built and after West Ham had been racing.I think it was Norbold who corrected that Wiki page The Heritage wall is in the General speedway section of this site I thought this would be the sort of reply I would get. How come nobody has ever corrected wikipedia. It looks as though the statement has been there for years. It was also interesting to see a photo of Colin Stewart who backs the 1923 start of speedway at West Maitland. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,993 Posted October 22, 2011 I thought this would be the sort of reply I would get. How come nobody has ever corrected wikipedia. It looks as though the statement has been there for years. It was also interesting to see a photo of Colin Stewart who backs the 1923 start of speedway at West Maitland. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT I don't really want to get into anything personal with you,but where is your evidence that the page has been there for years?I will put one bit of eveidence against......it mentions Gollob is the first Polish World Champ since Szczakiel.So that bit of evidence has been posted relatively recently wouldn't you say?But the thing with Wikepedia is a certain page might be there for years,but info within that page can be changed continously.This was my point with the Custom House page.Ok the info that Hoskins didn't build it can be corrected.But what is stopping someone some minutes,days or weeks after changing it back again..... And just to point out that even the page you mention does actually state that there is eveidence that meetings were held before Maitland Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olddon 7 Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) I don't really want to get into anything personal with you,but where is your evidence that the page has been there for years?I will put one bit of eveidence against......it mentions Gollob is the first Polish World Champ since Szczakiel.So that bit of evidence has been posted relatively recently wouldn't you say?But the thing with Wikepedia is a certain page might be there for years,but info within that page can be changed continously.This was my point with the Custom House page.Ok the info that Hoskins didn't build it can be corrected.But what is stopping someone some minutes,days or weeks after changing it back again..... And just to point out that even the page you mention does actually state that there is eveidence that meetings were held before Maitland That fact about Gollob in my mind was edited at a later date, after the opage originated - sure! But the previous text in the chapter about speedway's origin may not have been updated. I agree that there is mention of meetings before Maitland in 1923 - but wikipedia refers to these as dirt track whereas it does credit Maitland in December 1923 as being speedway. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Edited October 22, 2011 by olddon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,993 Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) That fact about Gollob in my mind was edited at a later date, after the opage originated - sure! But the previous text in the chapter about speedway's origin may not have been updated. I agree that there is mention of meetings before Maitland in 1923 - but wikipedia refers to these as dirt track whereas it does credit Maitland in December 1923 as being speedway. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Have you looked at the source given for this Maitland meeting being called speedway?It is a website showing the programme where presumably the guy running the website has written on the programme in red type "first speedway meeting",and that is the "evidence".Because the programme nor the newspaper ad mention "speedway".The only thing mentioned is "Motorcycle racing".Now i could find a programme from an earlier meeting anywhere in the world and with the use of a pc type first speedway meeting on it and that would be evidence? Please......... Edited October 22, 2011 by iris123 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
