Peter Craven Is He The Top Brit Ever?

[The White Knight 9,040]

On the Lee v Collins debate it is very close between them Lee,s B.L record was pretty good also?My take is both at there best on say 10 different tracks Lee for me would be the victor.This exspecially on the smaller slicker tracks apart from Hyde rd a peak Lee would beat Collins more often than not. Lee taking P.C for 2nd on the last bend from the back in 1980 won him the title.

 

Still think, overall PC was the better Rider sidney. I would, only just, pick Peter ahead of Michael every time. If the chips were down - you could usually rely on Peter to come up with the goods.

 

That what it's all about though. Your opinion is as valid as mine sidney. :)

[speedy bill 154]

you missed Arthur Wright and Dick Fisher off the third level.

[waiheke1 4,295]

Really interested by your knowledge and opinion both my kids who are football mad both say i dont give recent present day players anough credit.In your list a top 50 you would have alot of 1970s onwards players in it but it is very hard.

 

not sure I would have a disproportionate number s of post 70s players (though given that my football knowledge would really only date back to say 1930, you'd expect at least half to be post 1970s players) - the list of post 80s playes were examples of those who could be considered, not neccesarily ones I wou;d include.

 

On the Lee v Collins debate it is very close between them Lee,s B.L record was pretty good also?My take is both at there best on say 10 different tracks Lee for me would be the victor.This exspecially on the smaller slicker tracks apart from Hyde rd a peak Lee would beat Collins more often than not. Lee taking P.C for 2nd on the last bend from the back in 1980 won him the title.

Im not sure that's the best way to compare riders though. For example, if you put Nielsen and Gundersen head to head like that, I would epxect Gunderrsen to beat Nielsen more often that not, however I rate Nielsen the greater of the two. Speedway after all is (generally) not a sport consiting of two person races. Personally, where riders are of such similar ability, I'd look at achievements to split them - and to me Collins is definitely ahead of Lee in this regard.

But, of course it's all opinions, and there is no right or wrong answer!

[stratton 1,491]

 

not sure I would have a disproportionate number s of post 70s players (though given that my football knowledge would really only date back to say 1930, you'd expect at least half to be post 1970s players) - the list of post 80s playes were examples of those who could be considered, not neccesarily ones I wou;d include.

 

 

Im not sure that's the best way to compare riders though. For example, if you put Nielsen and Gundersen head to head like that, I would epxect Gunderrsen to beat Nielsen more often that not, however I rate Nielsen the greater of the two. Speedway after all is (generally) not a sport consiting of two person races. Personally, where riders are of such similar ability, I'd look at achievements to split them - and to me Collins is definitely ahead of Lee in this regard.

But, of course it's all opinions, and there is no right or wrong answer!

Lee won a longtrack title PC didnt individually Lee would be in front won British titles Commonwealth titles endless others.Lee rode in 6 finals 1 win a 4th and two 3rds thats at least on par with p.c isnt it? if not better.

[waiheke1 4,295]

Lee won a longtrack title PC didnt individually Lee would be in front won British titles Commonwealth titles endless others.Lee rode in 6 finals 1 win a 4th and two 3rds thats at least on par with p.c isnt it? if not better.

I dis-regard longtrack, as in my view it s adifferent sport (I wouldn't include Karl Maier as one of the great speeedway riders of the 80s for example).

As I said above, Lee's performance on World finals is certainly at least on a par with PC.

Pc won more BLRC's (albeit with home advantage), Lee more British titless, and I would say then won roughly comparable number of major World Championship qualifiying meetings (you mention Lee's commonwealth title, but ignore PC's winning 2 Inter-continental finals's to Lee's one). So, I believe in individual meetings, their records are almost in-separable (under a GP system I happen to believe PC would have won two world titles to Lee's one, but a similarly valid argument could be made 2-1 in Lee's favour).

 

However, PC won 4 World Pair titles (with 4 different partners!) and 5 WTC's (including three maximums in a row!). Lee won only 2 WTC. Obviously on the WTC front PC had the advantage of being part of a stronger team, but Lee's record (even if you go on points scored rather than titles) is simply not as good. Pc won three of his World Pair titles in the 80s (i.e. when he was past his best). Lee only represented England once and perfomed well, however I'd suggest the reason Lee wasn't picked more often was Pc's superior team riding.

 

Pc at his peak averaged over 11 in the BL (threshold for BL greatness in that era?) - I don't believe Lee ever did.

 

So, looking at the above, I rank PC ahead of Lee not because of his achievements as an inidiviudal, but his success in team events where he made decisive contributions.

[stratton 1,491]

I dis-regard longtrack, as in my view it s adifferent sport (I wouldn't include Karl Maier as one of the great speeedway riders of the 80s for example).

As I said above, Lee's performance on World finals is certainly at least on a par with PC.

Pc won more BLRC's (albeit with home advantage), Lee more British titless, and I would say then won roughly comparable number of major World Championship qualifiying meetings (you mention Lee's commonwealth title, but ignore PC's winning 2 Inter-continental finals's to Lee's one). So, I believe in individual meetings, their records are almost in-separable (under a GP system I happen to believe PC would have won two world titles to Lee's one, but a similarly valid argument could be made 2-1 in Lee's favour).

 

However, PC won 4 World Pair titles (with 4 different partners!) and 5 WTC's (including three maximums in a row!). Lee won only 2 WTC. Obviously on the WTC front PC had the advantage of being part of a stronger team, but Lee's record (even if you go on points scored rather than titles) is simply not as good. Pc won three of his World Pair titles in the 80s (i.e. when he was past his best). Lee only represented England once and perfomed well, however I'd suggest the reason Lee wasn't picked more often was Pc's superior team riding.

 

Pc at his peak averaged over 11 in the BL (threshold for BL greatness in that era?) - I don't believe Lee ever did.

 

So, looking at the above, I rank PC ahead of Lee not because of his achievements as an inidiviudal, but his success in team events where he made decisive contributions.

Great points from you i do include the Longtrack (ask Ivan)? team events i was not including those saying that was there a better team rider than PC.Probably not there records individually are identical credit though PC did reach 8 finals.Also PC was never on the threshold of greatness in the B.L he never ever had Olsen and Mauger,s total measure so he was never dominant.The few months of 1983 that version of Lee in my opinion would of beaten the 11 point average year of Collins Lee at times was awesome the golden helmet v Carter the pride of the east and that pairs meeting at Halifax come to mind.

[chunky 6,155]

I've just added Dick Fisher and John Davis to level three.

 

Steve

[waiheke1 4,295]

Great points from you i do include the Longtrack (ask Ivan)? team events i was not including those saying that was there a better team rider than PC.Probably not there records individually are identical credit though PC did reach 8 finals.Also PC was never on the threshold of greatness in the B.L he never ever had Olsen and Mauger,s total measure so he was never dominant.The few months of 1983 that version of Lee in my opinion would of beaten the 11 point average year of Collins Lee at times was awesome the golden helmet v Carter the pride of the east and that pairs meeting at Halifax come to mind.

If you include longtrack, then surely Wiggy is greater than them both?

Surely you have to include performances/titles in the England colours, given that Speedway is just as much a team sport as an individual one (even if the most prized title is the indvidual crown).

Anyway, as I said before there's no right and wrong in this debate, it's not like you're claiming Keegan to be better than Daliglish in which case there definitely would be a right and wrong

 

Really interested by your knowledge and opinion both my kids who are football mad both say i dont give recent present day players anough credit.In your list a top 50 you would have alot of 1970s onwards players in it but it is very hard.Looking at a different angle a few players who i have seen live but wouldnt be in a top 30 are CURRIE, BOWLES,LETISSIER,HODDLE,BRADY,D.THOMAS,HEIGHWAY,D.CLEMENT, I.GILLARD.COWANS,MCDERMOTT. ECT)

Would have loved to have seen Hoddle play live, my favourite ever English midfielder, and this from a Liverpool supporter- he still wouldn't be in my top 30 players of all time though.

 

My feeling on Lee and Collins is that it was very close hard to choose.I decided on Lee because i feel Lee,s total best was better than Peter,s best.I hazard a guess Peter,s record against Mike was better than most prob level? Lee,s record for ex) against say Nielsen ,Penhall,Gundersen,Mauger,is excellent also i wouldnt have Craven along way ahead of the other two greats.

Was Lee's record against those riders you name "excellent? In World Final's head to head clashes:

vs Penhall 1-1.

vs Mauger 1-2

vs Gundersen 1-1

vs Nielsen 1-2

 

and vs Pc 1-1

 

Certainly a very good record given that we are comparing against all time greats, but not sure you'd call it excellent?

[stratton 1,491]

If you include longtrack, then surely Wiggy is greater than them both?

Surely you have to include performances/titles in the England colours, given that Speedway is just as much a team sport as an individual one (even if the most prized title is the indvidual crown).

Anyway, as I said before there's no right and wrong in this debate, it's not like you're claiming Keegan to be better than Daliglish in which case there definitely would be a right and wrong

 

 

Would have loved to have seen Hoddle play live, my favourite ever English midfielder, and this from a Liverpool supporter- he still wouldn't be in my top 30 players of all time though.

 

 

Was Lee's record against those riders you name "excellent? In World Final's head to head clashes:

vs Penhall 1-1.

vs Mauger 1-2

vs Gundersen 1-1

vs Nielsen 1-2

 

and vs Pc 1-1

 

Certainly a very good record given that we are comparing against all time greats, but not sure you'd call it excellent?

Really i aimed that assumption Races, on actual head to head league racing (ect) individual clashes over the years.It would stack up well against any of those named also in affect his record really was say only over 9 years 1975-84 so 6 finals was pretty good going.Looking back in my mind he could of won 4 of those finals certainly not the 2 at Wembley though.Wiggy certainly the no 1 of longtrack for England Tatum had a great career to also Collins rode in a mighty longtrack era with Muller,Maier,Weisbock, Betz,Gilgenrainer all top notch.

[Split 183]

This is what scares me; look at all the names we can rattle off with ease, yet how many modern era (post-1990) merit inclusion? Steve

 

Just look at the result of the 1949 World Final with not only an English World Champion but 6 Englishmen in the top 7. Not much chance of that ever happening again.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Split

[chunky 6,155]

Just look at the result of the 1949 World Final with not only an English World Champion but 6 Englishmen in the top 7. Not much chance of that ever happening again.

 

While I agree with that assessment, it is a little unfair when one considers the limited opportunities for non-Commonwealth riders back then.

 

Steve

[Split 183]

While I agree with that assessment, it is a little unfair when one considers the limited opportunities for non-Commonwealth riders back then.

 

Steve

 

Yes, that's quite true and it's strange that a Dane, Morian Hansen rode in the first ever World Final in1936.

[fatface 2,609]

 

I dis-regard longtrack, as in my view it s adifferent sport (I wouldn't include Karl Maier as one of the great speeedway riders of the 80s for example).

As I said above, Lee's performance on World finals is certainly at least on a par with PC.

Pc won more BLRC's (albeit with home advantage), Lee more British titless, and I would say then won roughly comparable number of major World Championship qualifiying meetings (you mention Lee's commonwealth title, but ignore PC's winning 2 Inter-continental finals's to Lee's one). So, I believe in individual meetings, their records are almost in-separable (under a GP system I happen to believe PC would have won two world titles to Lee's one, but a similarly valid argument could be made 2-1 in Lee's favour).

 

However, PC won 4 World Pair titles (with 4 different partners!) and 5 WTC's (including three maximums in a row!). Lee won only 2 WTC. Obviously on the WTC front PC had the advantage of being part of a stronger team, but Lee's record (even if you go on points scored rather than titles) is simply not as good. Pc won three of his World Pair titles in the 80s (i.e. when he was past his best). Lee only represented England once and perfomed well, however I'd suggest the reason Lee wasn't picked more often was Pc's superior team riding.

 

Pc at his peak averaged over 11 in the BL (threshold for BL greatness in that era?) - I don't believe Lee ever did.

 

So, looking at the above, I rank PC ahead of Lee not because of his achievements as an inidiviudal, but his success in team events where he made decisive contributions.

 

It's a well expressed view above and one that I concur with. An absolute peak Lee and an absolute peak Collins is a very difficult one to separate. Indeed if we were judging all the greats merely at their absolutely top notch best, then these two are right at the very top. Arguably even better than Mauger. But you have to take into account longevity and in that regard PC trumps Lee. PC scored a maximum in the 1973 WTC final and in 1984 he won the World Pairs*. That's 12 years at world class level. Lee can claim 7 years at best - and that's being kind after a poor 1982.

 

* footage from this final is very rare, but there is an absolute vintage moment from PC when he outfoxes Erik Gundersen for a critical point

Edited March 24, 2012 by falcace

[stratton 1,491]

It's a well expressed view above and one that I concur with. An absolute peak Lee and an absolute peak Collins is a very difficult one to separate. Indeed if we were judging all the greats merely at their absolutely top notch best, then these two are right at the very top. Arguably even better than Mauger. But you have to take into account longevity and in that regard PC trumps Lee. PC scored a maximum in the 1973 WTC final and in 1984 he won the World Pairs*. That's 12 years at world class level. Lee can claim 7 years at best - and that's being kind after a poor 1982.

 

* footage from this final is very rare, but there is an absolute vintage moment from PC when he outfoxes Erik Gundersen for a critical point

Great post falcace i have never really thought of it but you are right PC and Lee on any going day would be a match for most anybody?Did i think Collins and Lee were as good as Penhall or Nielsen YES in my opinion they were.If you judge on longevity and over a period achievements thats a different matter .Out of the four i mentioned Nielsen,Collins, Lee,Penhall at there BEST Lee and Penhall would for me be the better it is hard thou. Edited March 24, 2012 by sidney

[waiheke1 4,295]

Great post falcace i have never really thought of it but you are right PC and Lee on any going day would be a match for most anybody?Did i think Collins and Lee were as good as Penhall or Nielsen YES in my opinion they were.If you judge on longevity and over a period achievements thats a different matter .Out of the four i mentioned Nielsen,Collins, Lee,Penhall at there BEST Lee and Penhall would for me be the better it is hard thou.

If you put them at their best in a one-off final I'd be inclined to agree with you. In a field of greats at their peak, Collins would struggle to pick them off from the back (unless it was held at Hyde Rd of course!). Nielsen for me blew too many world titles with one bad ride to rank quite as high as Penhall or Lee in a one-f scenario (that sais he was simply awesome at Munich in 89).

 

Under a gP system, however I'd disagree. Lee never had a season where he was utterly dominant for a whole season.Superb as he was for a period in 83, he didn't win anything of note that season. 80 he won the World Final, but that was about it in terms of big individual meetings. 79 was probably his best season, but he still had some bad meetings (e.g. OVerseas Final of WTC), and won "only" Commonwealth and Inter-continental titles.

Collins, again in a field of world class riders at their peak, would probably encounter a few too many tracks not conducive to passing to finish top.

Which leaves Penhall (81 version) and Nielsen (86 version) very very close, but I think ultimately I'd have to go with Hans - he won absolutely eveything that season,and recorded the highest EVER BL average - he may not win the most GPs, but he would be in every final.

 

It's a well expressed view above and one that I concur with. An absolute peak Lee and an absolute peak Collins is a very difficult one to separate. Indeed if we were judging all the greats merely at their absolutely top notch best, then these two are right at the very top. Arguably even better than Mauger. But you have to take into account longevity and in that regard PC trumps Lee. PC scored a maximum in the 1973 WTC final and in 1984 he won the World Pairs*. That's 12 years at world class level. Lee can claim 7 years at best - and that's being kind after a poor 1982.

to be pedantic, you'd have to say only 11 years for PC (taking out 1981 where he barely raced in the BL, and wasn't allowed to compete for England or in the WC).