Legends What Order?

[stratton 1,491]

A great post AD1974, and you have put a great case across i liked both and it is down to everyone's own opinion.Lee for me where his record holds up is that his head to head record from 1977 til 83 is very good against the best.Mauger,Olsen,Penhall,Nielsen,Gundersen,Sigalos,Moran if i hazard a guess and going through the meetings Lee,s career meetings with Collins and Jessup over the years were very close.

Edited January 22, 2013 by sidney

[Seymour Dix 2,038]

Hi ww, gotta say the only times I've seen Howard Cole mentioned in speedway literature he is always identified as English e.g. Maurice Jones book on the World Final- Howard Cole appeared in1969 and is shown as English. Bob Hughes interesting case -does anyone know where he was born??

 

I think Bob Hughes was born in Anglesey North Wales. If memory serves me he was a useful 1st Div 2nd String/ Reserve.

[waiheke1 4,295]

I'd start by saying that personally/subjectively I'd place the 3 riders you mention in the order of Collins first, Lee second and Carter third if they could all meet at their very best. Whatever - I think we'd all like some Brits of their standard around today!

 

I suppose the hardest question is - how do you define a rider's peak? Roughly my stuff is based primarily on the best '15 consecutive rides' for each rider. I've tried to remove things such as exclusions, falls, EFs and a few other bits and pieces as much as possible too to give a better reflection of their actual points scoring at their peak. (That said you've highlighted an interesting quirk with Collins where I've made a 50/50 call to leave a ride in but I guess many would have taken it out?)

 

If you're interested in the geekery side for the 3 riders you mentioned then here it is - but it's probably a little boring to anybody not obsessed with numbers!

 

For Peter Collins his best 'run of 15' was 3 3 0 3 1 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 3 2 - this gets a weighting to give more emphasis to his 'best run of 5' and 'best run of 10' and ends with an average final score of 13.16.

 

Carter was tricky as he only had 13 completed rides but this has been extended to 15 using his average race score so his best run was 3 2 3 3 3 3 3 1 2 3 3 1 1 2.38 2.38 - average weighted score of 12.79.

 

Michael Lee has a best run of 2 3 3 0 3 2 3 3 3 3 1 3 2 0 3 - average weighted score of 12.17.

 

Basically consistency costs Lee a higher rating.

 

The thing I mentioned above with Collins is that the 0 in his scores was the one in the '75 World Final when his chances were cocked up by some fans watering the track. I've tried to avoid getting involved in hypotheticals as much as possible but perhaps harsh that I've left this ride in. Would move his score up to 13.67 if I took it out.

 

 

Yes, GPs were a bit of a stinker to compare! Very briefly I've converted each GP into a 'ride' (top 4=3, next 4=2 etc) and then averaged these into 5 rides. Not easy but the most sensible method I could come up with to equate one format to the other.

 

The hardest for me was trying to include the best equivalent from the war years and how much to 'extrapolate' riders who had shortened careers. The balance between acknowledging the weaker fields outside official finals but not overly punishing riders like Bill Kitchen and Eric Chitty was a nightmare! As the old saying goes - you can only beat what is in front of you. Then there are also people like Tom Farndon, who just didn't get enough rides to try and extrapolate how good he was, and Vic Duggan who lost what would probably have been his peak years completely to WWII. It's hard to do anything other than hypothesize about just how the names I've mentioned would measure up against people like Collins, Carter & Lee.

 

 

My aim was to attempt to compare actual results as objectively as possible but you don't have to look hard through riders you know well to find examples where the ranking doesn't tell the whole story. For example:

Was Andy Smith really a better rider than John Cook, Ronnie Correy or Joe Screen?

Was Armando Castgana better than Shawn Moran?

Was Kelly really the better of the Moran brothers?

 

 

Never going to be a perfect way of doing this - which is what makes this kind of conversation so great - but with so many riders people never saw racing and so many different eras it's hard to find any better way to try and look at the question objectively.

 

Hope this wasn't all too boring - I did warn you I'm a statistician so really the clue was in my previous post! And apologies if the reply is late coming through but I'm still in my 'new to the forum' period where my posts need approving by a mod!

 

Thanks for the replies, as a bit of a stats geek myself I found it interesting. Just a few thoughts.

1. I think in determining "greatness" to look at World Final perfrmances only is a bit limiting. Not considering for example Barry Briggs consecutive BLRC titles, Hans Nielsen’s dominance of the BL, or Peter Collins team riding and World Pairs titles with 5(?) different partners, does them a disservice. But I do appreciate that in depth statistical analysis of all competitions would be incredibly time consuming!
   
2. With a statistical approach focusing on World Finals only , I think you need to have some sort of “bonus” system to reward world titles and rostrum finishes. A 13 point display which earns a third spot is surely not equivalent to one such as Gunderrsen’s title winning display in 1985 . Also seems ludicrous that Lee (one world title, two third places) could finish behind Carter (5^th placed highest finish)
   
3. I like the idea of adjusting for engine failures and crashes which were not purely rider error. However, rather than excluding these, perhaps a better approach would be to take the riders position at the time of the incident. So carter would get a second place for his e/f in 81 and a third for his fall in 82. If you are adjusting, I think you do need to adjust for the Collins fall you mentioned too.
   
4. Personally, I think a better approach would be to look at rider’s top 5 world finals, rathe r than three consecutive, and perhaps adding 2 points to the meeting score for winning the event, 1 point for second and 0.5 points for third, or something like that. I think this allows reward of performance over a period of time, and doesn’t unfairly penalize riders who may have consistently made world finals but had the odd “off” meeting.
   
5. Carter vs Lee is an interesting one, in that their peaks didn’t really overlap. Lee was great 1977-80 and 1983, Carter from 80-85 (but missed large chunks of 84/85 with injury), so only in 1983 were they both world class at the same time – in that year I believe Lee’s performances outstripped Carter’s. Personally, at the time (I started going in 81) I always ranked Carter above Lee, I guess because for most for that period KC was the better rider of the two, and bvecuase I watched most of my speedqay at Hyde Rd (and also the Shay) both tracks where Carter excelled
   

I also did some statistical analysis a while back (using a method similar to what I outlined above with best 5 performances in each stage evaluated with bonus points for rostrum finishes and qualification) on the world finals (and qualifiers ) of the 80s, Lee I think I had being eliminated at overseas final stage, while Carter made the final and finished 6

^th

. However, using the same system I also had Lee placing fifth in a best of the 70s final.

. However, looking back at their careers I think you have to rank Lee ahead of Carter, certainly in terms

of pure talent but also in terms of achievement.

As a footnote, I was at Odsal when both rode their final world chsmpionship

meetings, and what a sad way for two English greats to bow out. It was the British semi final 1986, Lee started with a last and then failed to finish any of his remaining rides. Carter had only two points at the interval (on his home track!), but won his last two rides and a run-off to qualify for the British final – which of course he wouldn’t ride in, as less than a week later he was dead. If you want a defining moment in the deline of English speedway, that particular emeting stands out for me (even if England did end with a healthy number of finalists that year, none of them were nearly as talented as Lee and Carter, the two Englishmen of the generation genuinely good enough to have been world Champ.

Edited March 8, 2013 by waihekeaces1

[stratton 1,491]

Lee,s career finished in my opinion when he was loaded up ready to go to the British Final but was stopped as the pathetic ban was not overturned.A disaster for him and speedway and then for me speedway spiralled downhill the debate on the Lee,Carter, Collins has been brilliant and is a very close thing.For me my top 3 Brits would be Craven, Lee, Collins, with Carter in amongst a host of other riders SImmo crash,Jessup,Louis,Wilson,

Edited March 8, 2013 by sidney

[oldace 1,678]

Lee,s career finished in my opinion when he was loaded up ready to go to the British Final but was stopped as the pathetic ban was not overturned.A disaster for him and speedway and then for me speedway spiralled downhill the debate on the Lee,Carter, Collins has been brilliant and is a very close thing.For me my top 3 Brits would be Craven, Lee, Collins, with Carter in amongst a host of other riders SImmo crash,Jessup,Louis,Wilson,

 

Not a bad top three although I would have them in a different order. Three superbly natural talents on a speedway bike.

[The White Knight 9,039]

Mine would be Craven, Collins and Lee with Simmo in fourth.

[waiheke1 4,295]

For me my top 3 Brits would be Craven, Lee, Collins, with Carter in amongst a host of other riders SImmo crash,Jessup,Louis,Wilson,

collins, craven,lee for me.

I can see valid arguments for and against ranking carter above/below simmons and jessup, but think you'd certainly have to rank him ahead of crash, louis and wilson, none of whom (imho) were ever really genuine world title contenders.

[stratton 1,491]

 

collins, craven,lee for me.

I can see valid arguments for and against ranking carter above/below simmons and jessup, but think you'd certainly have to rank him ahead of crash, louis and wilson, none of whom (imho) were ever really genuine world title contenders.

Craven ( a 10 times world finalist) 2 times champion rostrum x2 died at only aged 29.On achievements alone i would of thought he would have to be in front of Collins? As for Louis you underate him i believe,he did get a rostrum spot was 4th once and he was a late starter in speedway.Louis was underated was his world final stats better than Kenny? one of the best i see ride at the Abbey in the 70s could beat Briggs and crash and not many did that!

[The White Knight 9,039]

Craven ( a 10 times world finalist) 2 times champion rostrum x2 died at only aged 29.On achievements alone i would of thought he would have to be in front of Collins? As for Louis you underate him i believe,he did get a rostrum spot was 4th once and he was a late starter in speedway.Louis was underated was his world final stats better than Kenny? one of the best i see ride at the Abbey in the 70s could beat Briggs and crash and not many did that!

 

Simmo finished SECOND one year sidney.

[stratton 1,491]

 

 

Simmo finished SECOND one year sidney.

Yes he did WK, in 76, 1975 and 1976 Crump could of won it couldn't do it though. Simmo was a stylist never ever see that guy out of control on a speedway bike. Edited March 9, 2013 by sidney

[norbold 7,195]

On achievement and skill on a bike it's hard to argue against Craven, Collins and Lee as the best of the post War Brits. But going on from there with Carter, Simmons, Ashby, Wilson, Louis, etc, surely Freddie Williams should rank above all of them and we would also need to include Tommy Price, Brian Crutcher, Split Waterman, Ken McKinlay, Nigel Boocock and Ron How in the mix.

[stratton 1,491]

On achievement and skill on a bike it's hard to argue against Craven, Collins and Lee as the best of the post War Brits. But going on from there with Carter, Simmons, Ashby, Wilson, Louis, etc, surely Freddie Williams should rank above all of them and we would also need to include Tommy Price, Brian Crutcher, Split Waterman, Ken McKinlay, Nigel Boocock and Ron How in the mix.

Yes would agree totally 'nor bold' didn't include WIlliams because he was Welsh, a bloke who never got the reconition he deserved a great no doubt about it!

[The White Knight 9,039]

On achievement and skill on a bike it's hard to argue against Craven, Collins and Lee as the best of the post War Brits. But going on from there with Carter, Simmons, Ashby, Wilson, Louis, etc, surely Freddie Williams should rank above all of them and we would also need to include Tommy Price, Brian Crutcher, Split Waterman, Ken McKinlay, Nigel Boocock and Ron How in the mix.

 

You are right norbold. Certainly Freddie should be in the top three - in fact - he could have been Number One (which he is in my book) but for the fact that Freddie won both of his Titles at his Home Track.

 

I will change my top three:

 

1) Peter Craven

 

2)Freddie Williams

 

3) Peter Collins.

 

I tend to think more of the Riders I have actually watched Racing when answering these sorts of questions.

 

Thank you for pointing that out.

[waiheke1 4,295]

Craven ( a 10 times world finalist) 2 times champion rostrum x2 died at only aged 29.On achievements alone i would of thought he would have to be in front of Collins? As for Louis you underate him i believe,he did get a rostrum spot was 4th once and he was a late starter in speedway.Louis was underated was his world final stats better than Kenny? one of the best i see ride at the Abbey in the 70s could beat Briggs and crash and not many did that!

I had Peter Collins ahead of Craven for a numbe of reasons:

1. Personal bias - COllins is one of my favourite all time riders

2. For both PCs (and also Lee) the stats alone do not truly reflect what brilliant riders there were - however while there is ample evidence of Collins' brilliance (77 inter-contrinetal final, world finals of 76/77 etc) available to view (and of course i saw him regularly around hyde Rd) to see jnust how good he was, there isn't similar footage available for a young un like me to see how ggod the other PC was

3. Collins may have one world title less, but picked up multiple world pairs titles, the consecutive maximums in WTC finals etc,which i think tends to even things out

4. Under a GP system, I think Collins may have "out titled" Craven 2-1.

5. Craven did have his career tragically cut short, but remember Collins "retired" from British speedway at the age of 26. He was still world class when he returned, but never again lookedd likely to add to his individal title.

Them's my reasons Sidney, I appreciate that many would place them in a different order.

 

On John Louis - dond't get me wrong , he was world class. The reasons I rated Simmons/Jessup/Carter higher was:

Jessup - 2nd in the World in 80, and but for engine troubles could have added a world title in 80 and another runners up medal in 81. Under a GP system would have arugably been world champ in 1980 and runner-up in 81. (just finished reading Mike Lee's autobiography and he mentions how cheap DJ was - makes you wonder if those critical engine probklems could have been avoided if he'd spent a little bit more?)

Simmons- multiple world pairs titles with different partners, as well as runner up in the individual in 76.

Carter - has an inferior record in world finals to Louis,BUT there were obviously extenuating circumstances in both 81 and 82, and he would have been a hot favourite in 85 had injury not intervened. Add to that his back to back BLRC titles (look at the other riders to have done this, there are only the all time greats) and British titles (one on one leg), as well as the fact that I beklieve he was the last Brit to top the BL averages - and I think he has to rank ahead of tiger Louis.

 

On achievement and skill on a bike it's hard to argue against Craven, Collins and Lee as the best of the post War Brits. But going on from there with Carter, Simmons, Ashby, Wilson, Louis, etc, surely Freddie Williams should rank above all of them and we would also need to include Tommy Price, Brian Crutcher, Split Waterman, Ken McKinlay, Nigel Boocock and Ron How in the mix.

Agree - after the top three I think there is a group of riders (likes of Williams, Parker, Loram etc) who would likely rank above the likes of Carter/Jessup etc.

[stratton 1,491]

A good post and the reasons you gave all have substance,the only thing i don't agree with is i don't believe Jessup would of ever won a GPseries .Because of what you said having reliable machinery over a period,there were numerous times when Jessup conveniently borrowed Lee,s bikes and on that front was never as well set up as Lee and Collins were.I am also bias as i never really was a fan of Jessup a good rider and his record is there to be seen but in my opinion was behind those 2 and in with a host of other great English riders.