King's Lynn Stars 2014

[foreverblue 6,125]

Go on then, lol!

 

Here are some of the recent meetings involving top teams who had or still have a chance of finishing top but every meeting is meaningless as they qualified for the pokc beforehand.

 

01-09-14 Belle Vue v Coventry EL

01-09-14 Lakeside v Poole EL

03-09-14 Poole v Wolverhampton EL

04-09-14 Coventry v King's Lynn EL

05-09-14 Lakeside v Poole EL

08-09-14 Swindon v Coventry EL

10-09-14 Poole v Eastbourne EL

11-09-14 Leicester v King's Lynn EL

15-09-14 Coventry v Poole EL

17-09-14 Leicester v Poole EL

22-09-14 Belle Vue v King's Lynn (followed by) EL

 

I just cut and pasted from the BSPA website so there might be some missing.

 

Anyway, that's 11 meetings involving TOP teams who had already qualified for the pokc but otherwise had or still have an outside chance of finishing top and you say you can give 4 or 5 examples for each one. I've already noted your visit to Leicester v Swindon which achieved a total of 100 extra fans so you only need come up with another 54 meetings.

 

Take your time.

 

I thing you forgot about the meaningless fixtures due to the pokc winners only needing to win 50% instead of 75% of their meetings but we can come back to that, you've enough on your plate. Ha ha!

 

I think your forgetting something and that is it is important to win the league as then you can pick who you play in the semi final therefore having a better chance of making it to the very lucrative final. Some would say it is quite important to finish second as you can choose if want the away leg first or second, so not meaningless. So for those team that have the chance still of finishing top very important which is why Poole will go all out for that vital 4 points tonight.

[orion 7,641]

Go on then, lol!

 

Here are some of the recent meetings involving top teams who had or still have a chance of finishing top but every meeting is meaningless as they qualified for the pokc beforehand.

 

01-09-14 Belle Vue v Coventry EL

01-09-14 Lakeside v Poole EL

03-09-14 Poole v Wolverhampton EL

04-09-14 Coventry v King's Lynn EL

05-09-14 Lakeside v Poole EL

08-09-14 Swindon v Coventry EL

10-09-14 Poole v Eastbourne EL

11-09-14 Leicester v King's Lynn EL

15-09-14 Coventry v Poole EL

17-09-14 Leicester v Poole EL

22-09-14 Belle Vue v King's Lynn (followed by) EL

 

I just cut and pasted from the BSPA website so there might be some missing.

 

Anyway, that's 11 meetings involving TOP teams who had already qualified for the pokc but otherwise had or still have an outside chance of finishing top and you say you can give 4 or 5 examples for each one. I've already noted your visit to Leicester v Swindon which achieved a total of 100 extra fans so you only need come up with another 54 meetings.

 

Take your time.

 

I thing you forgot about the meaningless fixtures due to the pokc winners only needing to win 50% instead of 75% of their meetings but we can come back to that, you've enough on your plate. Ha ha!

Yet again most of those matches still meant something as finishing top means you can pick who you want to ride in the semi also cov swindon had not made the top 4 for certain .. Go back have a rethink they come back with another list instead of rushing and making a fool of yourself ...

Edited September 17, 2014 by orion

[g13webb 4,254]

Me again, I love this debate.... There are fors and against the POKC and I appreciate that, I think having a 4 team KO cup at the end of the season ( That's all it is) is a brilliant idea. What I think is ridiculous is to put a prize of League Champions when it obviously isn't. The instance the POKC were introduced the League was immediately devalued. You say about meaningless fixtures, well now we have loads of them and all because of these POKC.

 

3 years ago we reached the PO and were subsequently beaten in the semis, but that wasn't our biggest gate. That year Good Friday attracted over 3500 people mostly because of the weather. So all this crap about crowd only wanting POKC is just a fallacy.

 

If the package is right the crowds will come. We don't have to wager the League title just to achieve this...........

[orion 7,641]

I've heard it all now!

 

There is no comparison in finishing top to have a pick compared to becoming League Champions.

 

I doubt a single extra fan turned up because a team had a chance of 'winning' first pick ffs!

 

I knew you would not even be able to think of 1 'that meant something' never mind the '4 or 5'.

 

What you need to do is think through what you are saying, if I said I can give 4 or 5 examples blah blah then I'd already have it to hand, you just come up with phantom claims and if you backed it with facts then I'd be more than happy to give you a cheery slap on the back of the head.

Why are you back tracking ...you made a list that was totally wrong ..rather than trying to move the goal posts do the list again in the correct manner ..and then are give you the examples you ask for . It's not hard even for you .

[orion 7,641]

Ha ha!

 

You've managed to score an own goal and I didn't spot it first time around, brilliant work.

 

You're right, when Coventry visited Belle Vue they had not mathematically clinched their play off spot. Therefore there should have been a few extra from Coventry to cheer them on to the pokc (it would have been 100 extra had it been Swindon, although 100 extra didn't turn up for their crucial pokc qualifier at Belle Vue. Doh! another own goal, lol!) but there was not a single cheer or air horn for any Coventry rider although the Belle Vue fans politely clapped their outstanding performance that night.

 

Only you can go down a path which actually defeats your own point of view, I really enjoy discussing the pokc with you.

 

Anyway, well done you spotted it, so take the Aces v Bees meeting out and work on that. Much easier now, only 49 meetings to prove your point, lol!

 

Priceless, absolutely priceless!

Yet again more waffle ...just do the list again ...how hard can it be ? the fact is you can't .. next time have a little think because you post info that is clearly wrong then you won't make sure fool of yourself

[tellboy 3,672]

Hardly Mickey Mouse ..no one cares who comes top of the league the play offs is all that matters .

Yet again most of those matches still meant something as finishing top means you can pick who you want to ride in the semi also cov swindon had not made the top 4 for certain .. Go back have a rethink they come back with another list instead of rushing and making a fool of yourself ...

 

Edited by orion, Today, 02:05 PM

 

Wasn't sure how to put multiple posts on here.But the other day you were saying nobody cares who tops the league,then you say matches mean something because you want to win the league so you can pick who you want.So somebody cares who wins the league

Edited September 17, 2014 by tellboy

[BWitcher 12,453]

Drop a Cog always digs up the 1993 Wolves V Belle Vue clash..

 

He reminds us what a great crowd it was, fantastic atmosphere and so nerve wracking as both sets of fans knew the league title would be decided that night.

 

However, what he fails to realise is, he's simply promoting the virtue of the playoffs.. as rather than experience such an occasion every 20 years or so... we can now enjoy it every single season in the play off final.

 

1996 Wolves won the league, I went to every single meeting home and away.. it was a brilliant season. However the night we clinched the league, it was something of a let down, sure we celebrated, we enjoyed it, but it was missing any form of tension.

 

The play off wins in 2002 and 2009 were a completely different feeling and the excitement and tension on those nights was comparable to the 1993 Wolves/Belle Vue clash.

 

I do see his overall point in that when you have seasons such as this one, where the race to finish 1st is going down to the wire, under the old system you WOULD have had bigger crowds for those matches on the run-in. Nowhere near the Wolves/Belle Vue crowd however which was unique as the two teams clashed in the final meeting.

 

It's balanced by Orion quite correctly pointing out that the playoffs keep the season alive for other teams for much longer.

 

As for blaming the playoffs for declining crowds, that doesn't tally up as the crowds were declining before the play offs came along. There are far bigger reasons for the sports decline... one of them being stadia. Hopefully the new Belle Vue stadium can help arrest that decline in Manchester.

Edited September 17, 2014 by BWitcher

[BWitcher 12,453]

 

Somebody touched on it earlier in the thread but I've no doubt Birmingham's demise has been accelerated by what happened last season as there MUST have been some fans who realised the early season just isn't worth the time and money and they did to bother. Who knows, there may be another reason why fewer fans turned up this season.

 

Birmingham fans realised early on their team was poor and wasn't even going to challenge for the play-offs.

 

According to you, they'd have been more likely to show up with the even more remote possibility they would challenge for the league. Your logic is completely flawed, it doesn't matter how many times you say it.

 

Speedway attendances are down for many reasons, the sport lost a hell of a lot more fans BEFORE the play-offs were introduced than after, so to blame it for the decline is ludicrous. One thing you can say is it hasn't reversed the decline.

 

Your argument is also totally flawed as other countries run playoffs and don't suffer attendance issues. The question to be asked is, what do they do differently to us.. it's not play offs so the answer lies elsewhere.

[orion 7,641]

I agree, there are arguments for and against. It is impossible to argue against the drama and excitement generated by the semi finals and final of a good cup competition, particularly if the prize is worthwhile.

 

What sky have done is take away the prize for the league and 'give' it to the pokc to make their competition better at the expense of the league and only because they ballsed up and missed the Champions being crowned one season.

 

The problem is everyone (except the most intelligent of us) fell for it hook line and sinker.

Ha ha, you only have to take Belle Vue v Coventry out which is actually an excellent example.

 

Covemtry were not certain of a pokc place (good spot, I've already given you credit for that but it is worth mentioning again lol!) but there were no extra fans. You keep telling us that this would have been a meaningless meeting had it not been for the pokc, why did nobody extra turn up, that means you are talking bollox again doesn't it.

 

Anyway, YOU said you could 4 or 5 examples of meetings made worthwhile by the pokc for every meeting rendered meaningless by the pokc, so far you've managed one.

 

Is there a problem, ha ha!

Your have to takeout more than Cov ..as Lakeside ,Swindon and Eastie also could still make the play offs and all were on your list .. as I said go back and do the list the again take your time and get it correct . Must a reason you keep trying to duck out of it .

[BWitcher 12,453]

No, you have not only missed the point but then assumed that something must follow on from a related statement.

 

For example, 'you support IS then you are a Muslim (99.999% accurate?) That doesn't mean 'if you are Muslim then you support IS' (0.00001% accurate?) but some people will read the first statement then claim 'logically' the second follows.

 

Best bet is just stick to what's written and don't try and second guess the authors logic.

 

As far as Brummies attendances, who knows, (I did say that but you seem to have missed that bit?) but I bet at least one Brummies fan who went to the majority of their home meetings last season didn't bother at least once this season for the reason I suggest and I reckon it is probably more than one fan who missed one meeting.

 

Anyway, the point is meaningless fixtures generate smaller attendances and the pokc generates more meaningless fixtures that were traditionally 'top' fixtures involving the top teams. However the fixtures involving teams trying to qualify for the pokc are obviously a bit more meaningful than they would have been without the pokc, sadly nobody is that bothered anymore. The best (only lol!) example given so far has claimed an extra 100 through the gate. Just taking those two facets of the pokc produces a net reduction in attendances unless you believe mid table teams are more likley to get bigger attendances for pokc qualifiers than top teams chasing the League Championship. Possible but unlikely.

 

Not only that but clearly if the winners of the competition only need to win around half their fixtures when previously they needed to win more than three quarters then there must be more meaningless, or at least less important meetings.

 

These are not opinions, they are facts.

 

Here's the logic bit, lol!

 

While attendances overall are down the net position solely due to the pokc is negative.

 

No facts there, just a load of waffle. I haven't missed any 'point' as there wasn't one. Just you concocting some wild theory to try and suit your argument.

 

You have NO idea what the net position is down to the playoffs. Absolutely none. Just your own opinion.

 

However these are facts.

 

Speedways attendances were declining long before playoffs were introduced.

Speedways attendances continued to decline after the playoffs were introduced.

The other major speedway countries have play off systems. They, particularly Poland, are able to attract good crowds all season long.

 

As you do every year you dig yourself a deeper and deeper hole, get more and more desperate and provide us with some jolly good amusement.

 

Before I go though, you told us another thread that crowds are up at Belle Vue this season? How's that happened then?

Edited September 17, 2014 by BWitcher

[Midland Red 2,383]

You could be right!

A lot of the old school, Sunday dinner, beef and Yorkshire with all the trimmings fans who don't like the pokc have gone and probably won't come back.

The pokc, burger and fries, slice of pizza and coke fans will stop coming.

It's like an alcoholic, she knows it isn't doing her any good but she can't do without it.

pokc? What's that?

[Star Lady 5,400]

Any chance you could go and have your play off somewhere else.

 

This is supposed to be a Lynn thread.

[BWitcher 12,453]

It is a fact that meaningless fixtures attract lower attendances isn't it?

 

Already your first statement "no facts there" is proved wrong.

 

The pokc creates meaningless meetings for the reasons given, another fact.

 

Incidently a meaningless meeting is one with nothing to race for a bit like a challenge. Some challenge fixtures are quite good though but are rarely well attended.

 

The opinion, as you put it, is the logical conclusion you reach when comparing pokc qualifiers featuring mid table sides to meetings involving teams at the top of the league vying for the Championship when the best team becomes Champions. I did say that it was the 'logical bit', maybe you don't understand what that means, in fact, logically you don't know what logical means, lol! I did say 'who knows' when drawing a conclusion in an earlier post which you appear to have taken as a fact rather than an opinion, shame.

 

Anyway, apparently the ratio between those two groups is 5:1 (remains to be seen lol!) and up to now the best figure is an extra 100 on the gate for a pokc qualifier. In my experience when the top team were champions and my team was involved the title race gates grew exponentially through the season and even after the title was clinched the high gates continued until the end of the season.

 

Some of your statements of fact are based on anecdotal evidence, if you want to follow up your facts then feel free but claiming my facts aren't facts and yours are is just hypocritical isn't it? Polish crowds may be 'good' but so are ours compared to Germany or even Denmark so a bit of meat on the bones, not conjecture by the way, would help.

 

As for Belle Vue, well I don't know if you heard but we signed the 7 time British Champion in the winter, along with another British rider who had put a couple of points on his average every season since first getting on a speedway bike and also included one of the best young British riders in the country. When you add that to one of the top GP riders in the world then there was some optimism around. The change to the fast track rules did spoil it a bit but, and this is probably been the main reason, we have been on the telly a bit (not sky, proper local news that everyone watches) because we are having a new stadium. There is quite a bit of excitement and people who had never even heard about speedway have started turning up. I was explaining how to fill a programme in to a young lad and his dad at a recent meeting.

 

That little lot might have something to do with it?

 

You're hilarious.

 

You even defeat your own argument.

 

By your fact that meaningless meetings produce smaller crowds, there are far more meaningless meetings in a system with no playoffs than there are with. That is a FACT. So thanks for proving yourself wrong.

 

You're quoting a few end of season meets, I can give you fixtures involving Eastbourne, Lakeside, Swindon, Wolverhampton for much of the season. All clubs who would have known very early on they had no chance of winning the league, rendering the rest of their season 'meaningless' but had something to race for for much of the season. Once it was apparent Wolves weren't going to make the play-offs and they had nothing to race for, their crowds tumbled.

 

As for Belle Vue, thanks for confirming what I already knew.. they had a decent team, thus the fans were interested. They remained interested until the team could no longer realistically make the playoffs and then the crowds plummeted. With no playoffs it would have been apparent by end of April they had no chance of winning the league and the crowds would have dropped off even quicker.

 

It's a shame though, that with these alleged increased crowds, all this excitement that they don't pay their riders....

Edited September 17, 2014 by BWitcher

[orion 7,641]

Yea you have to laugh at Drop a cog ..he makes a list of matches that try to back up his point but then get most of them wrong As bw said he only poster i know who proves himself wrong

[orion 7,641]

 

 

Ha ha! Yawn. I'll keep it simple.

 

I doubt you have much choice .