Legends What Are People's All Time Top 8.?

[stratton 1,491]

Lee in front of PC - NEVER!!!! in a million years sidney. :shock:

Andy says so! and the stats say so WK in world finals.Collins was a awesome rider brilliant, but Lee at his best was quick. That year in 1983 to think he was beating legends like Hans and Erik was awesome and people who see him destroy Carter 4.0 in the helmet beating him by half a lap unbelievable stuff.

[The White Knight 9,039]

Andy says so! and the stats say so WK in world finals.Collins was a awesome rider brilliant, but Lee at his best was quick. That year in 1983 to think he was beating legends like Hans and Erik was awesome and people who see him destroy Carter 4.0 in the helmet beating him by half a lap unbelievable stuff.

 

I think PC's First and Second in World Finals trumps Lee sidney.

 

I must admit to being a big PC Supporter from his Rochdale days - so perhaps I'm a tad biased my friend. :)

Edited January 28, 2014 by The White Knight

[stratton 1,491]

I think PC's First and Second in World Finals trumps Lee sidney.

 

I must admit to being a big PC Supporter from his Rochdale days - so perhaps I'm a tad biased my friend. :)

Eh up WK , Mike the Bike winner once, 3rd twice , 4th once out of 6 finals and not being biased Lee could of won 4 finals in 77, 79,80,83.Saying that PC DESERVED to win two titles i enjoyed both of they're careers WK,we were both lucky to see both of them ride bit of banter eh both superb riders. Edited January 28, 2014 by sidney

[The White Knight 9,039]

Eh up WK , Mike the Bike winner once, 3rd twice , 4th once out of 6 finals and not being biased Lee could of won 4 finals in 77, 79,80,83.Saying that PC DESERVED to win two titles i enjoyed both of they're careers WK,we were both lucky to see both of them ride bit of banter eh both superb riders.

 

Spot on sydney.

[waiheke1 4,295]

gustix, on 21 Jan 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

At best, for a fast-changing sport like speedway in my opinion the nearest we can get is to have 'best eights' for 10 year periods. The value of these is that some riders will make the crossover between eras and this surely is of more value than an 'all time top eight riders' table.

 

Something like this? Posted 18 months ago, so the 2010 list would change a bit now – but pleased that I got Tai in there!

waihekeaces1, on 13 Jun 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

Ok, here's my first crack at top 10 riders by decade, starting at the 60s (I don't know enough about the 50s and prior ) and including a guess at the 2010s.

60s
Fundin Briggs Mauger Knuttson Craven Plechanov Moore Woryna Wyglenda GNorden

70s
Mauger Olsen Collins Michanek Lee Simmons Louis Autrey PlechP Crump

80s Nielsen Penhall Gundersen Lee Carter S Moran Pedersen Morton Sigalos
Knudsen

90s Rikkardson Nielsen Ermolenko Jonsson Hamil Hancock Pedersen Havelock Gollob
Knudsen

2000s Crump Rickardson Pedersen Gollob Adams Loram Hancock Sullivan
Hampel

2010s Ward Emil Holder Hancock Gollob Hampel N Pedersen Crump Dudek Tai Woffinden (here's hoping!)

 

AD1974, on 22 Jan 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

It is impossible to include league performance or results from other qualifiers and internationals but in the Gundersen/Nielsen debate they surely suggest that Nielsen was a better rider don't they?!

 

I disagree – I’m actually working on a sytsem to do exactly that - a ranking based on performances in the world final, qualifiers, internationals, league and BLRC. So far, I’ve just done 1981-1985, and the weightings need some tinkering, but it gives some interesting results. Purely for that period, you get a top five of:

1. Based on single season peak 1 Penhall(81) 2, Nielsen (85) 3. Carter (82) 4. Gundersen (83) 5. Lee (83)
2. Based on average of best three seasons 1 Penhall (two seasons only) 2 Nielsen 3 gundersen 4 Carter 5 S Moran
3. Based on cumulative scores over that period 1 Nielsen 2Gundersen 3 Carter 4 S Moran 5 Knudsen

I hope to do the same for all seasons (I did a similar thing for 2013), but is dependent on having free time to do so.

sidney, on 22 Jan 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

Forget the pairs team events, Lee had a better world final record than Collins, he had six finals he was on the rostrum x2 a winner once and a fourth place.Collins had eight appearances a winner once ( very unlucky in 77) but Lee was unlucky in 83 i believe he was the best rider in the world that year on stats Lee is the better in my book.Certainly on the WF record also i know Lee was finished after 83 but he was up there easily with Nielsen,Erik,Sigalos, Penhall a new generation Peter was finished really by 80/81as a possible winner.

But why forget those events – just because PC had a better record? Lee’s record in world finals was marginally better than PC granted (better average, i’d say a gold and two bronze is fractionally better than a gold and two silver, though PC deserves credit for making more finals), but in every other respect PC’s record was better. 83 stats would suggest Lee was the third best in the world, behind Hans and Eric, though at his peak that season he was unstoppable (THAT demolition of Carter!). He only made the rostrum in the final due to Hans puncture though.

The argument that can be made in faour of Lee is not what he did achieve (PC’s achievement IMHO dwarf Lees) but what he could have achieved. when he rode that last final at Norden, he was roughly the same age as PC, Erik and Tai when they won their first titles, and younger than Penhall and Hans.

gustix, on 27 Jan 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

I thought you would have heard of the leading website - The Speedway Researcher?

Yes I am acquainted with that excellent site– however those war time meetings weren’t listed in the “special” section along with the 46-48 British Riders Champs or the World Champs, hence my query. Thanks to you and Norbold for your responses, I’ve now located them, and will peruse when I have time.

sidney, on 29 Jan 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

An impressive list Andy, am chuffed Lee is in front of Collins and Penhall agree with all of them except Pedersen he would not get in my 16.

I think Nicki has to be regarded as one of the top 16 of all time. You can’t fluke three world titles under the GP system that he has ridden under, in at least one of those seasons he was indisputably the best rider across all competitions. Nicki seems to be the most under rated multi world champ of all time. That said, he doesn’t make my own top dozen.

[pandorum 1,259]

Best I ever saw.

 

Ivan Mauger, Barry Briggs, Tommy Jansson, Anders Michanek, Hans Nielsen, Bruce Penhall, Peter Collins, Ole Olsen.

 

And out of that lot the best speedway rider I ever saw was Tommy Jansson.

Edited February 4, 2014 by pandorum

[norbold 7,162]

Ok, here's my first crack at top 10 riders by decade, starting at the 60s (I don't know enough about the 50s and prior ) and including a guess at the 2010s.

 

60s

Fundin Briggs Mauger Knuttson Craven Plechanov Moore Woryna Wyglenda GNorden

 

70s

Mauger Olsen Collins Michanek Lee Simmons Louis Autrey PlechP Crump

 

80s Nielsen Penhall Gundersen Lee Carter S Moran Pedersen Morton Sigalos

Knudsen

 

90s Rikkardson Nielsen Ermolenko Jonsson Hamil Hancock Pedersen Havelock Gollob

Knudsen

 

2000s Crump Rickardson Pedersen Gollob Adams Loram Hancock Sullivan

Hampel

 

2010s Ward Emil Holder Hancock Gollob Hampel N Pedersen Crump Dudek Tai Woffinden (here's hoping!)

Very good, waihekeaces 1.You've got me going there. So here's a go at completing the decades...

 

1920s: Arthur, Huxley, Smythe, Lamont, Pearce, Parker (J), Frogley ®, Kempster,

1930s: Farndon, Wilkinson, Milne (J), Langton, Huxley, Van Praag, Milne ©, Parker (J).

1940s: Duggan (V), Parker (J), Price, Johnson, Kitchen, Chitty, Langton, Parker (N)

1950s: Young, Moore ®, Fundin, Briggs, Craven, Williams, Waterman, Lawson,

Edited February 4, 2014 by norbold

[stratton 1,491]

Best I ever saw.

 

Ivan Mauger, Barry Briggs, Tommy Jansson, Anders Michanek, Hans Nielsen, Bruce Penhall, Peter Collins, Ole Olsen.

 

And out of that lot the best speedway rider I ever saw was Tommy Jansson.

"Pandorum" i would agree with you to an extent, ,Jansson was a terrific rider an awesome riding style he certainly was one of the best riders i have ever seen.I only see him ride six times he beat Ashby for the helmet and i see him a few times at international level but i have often thought could he of pushed PC at Katowice in 76.?I think so that year he was riding so well, i always thought PC,Tommy,and Phil Crump were the ones who could push through the old rearguard of Briggo,Ivan, and Ole.It would be great to hear from people who see quite alot of Tommy ride i was lucky i at least see him ride half a dozen times.

gustix, on 21 Jan 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

At best, for a fast-changing sport like speedway in my opinion the nearest we can get is to have 'best eights' for 10 year periods. The value of these is that some riders will make the crossover between eras and this surely is of more value than an 'all time top eight riders' table.

 

Something like this? Posted 18 months ago, so the 2010 list would change a bit now – but pleased that I got Tai in there!

waihekeaces1, on 13 Jun 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

Ok, here's my first crack at top 10 riders by decade, starting at the 60s (I don't know enough about the 50s and prior ) and including a guess at the 2010s.

60s

Fundin Briggs Mauger Knuttson Craven Plechanov Moore Woryna Wyglenda GNorden

70s

Mauger Olsen Collins Michanek Lee Simmons Louis Autrey PlechP Crump80s Nielsen Penhall Gundersen Lee Carter S Moran Pedersen Morton SigalosKnudsen90s Rikkardson Nielsen Ermolenko Jonsson Hamil Hancock Pedersen Havelock GollobKnudsen2000s Crump Rickardson Pedersen Gollob Adams Loram Hancock SullivanHampel2010s Ward Emil Holder Hancock Gollob Hampel N Pedersen Crump Dudek Tai Woffinden (here's hoping!)

 

AD1974, on 22 Jan 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

It is impossible to include league performance or results from other qualifiers and internationals but in the Gundersen/Nielsen debate they surely suggest that Nielsen was a better rider don't they?!

 

I disagree – I’m actually working on a sytsem to do exactly that - a ranking based on performances in the world final, qualifiers, internationals, league and BLRC. So far, I’ve just done 1981-1985, and the weightings need some tinkering, but it gives some interesting results. Purely for that period, you get a top five of:

 

• Based on single season peak 1 Penhall(81) 2, Nielsen (85) 3. Carter (82) 4. Gundersen (83) 5. Lee (83)
• Based on average of best three seasons 1 Penhall (two seasons only) 2 Nielsen 3 gundersen 4 Carter 5 S Moran
• Based on cumulative scores over that period 1 Nielsen 2Gundersen 3 Carter 4 S Moran 5 Knudsen

I hope to do the same for all seasons (I did a similar thing for 2013), but is dependent on having free time to do so.

sidney, on 22 Jan 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

Forget the pairs team events, Lee had a better world final record than Collins, he had six finals he was on the rostrum x2 a winner once and a fourth place.Collins had eight appearances a winner once ( very unlucky in 77) but Lee was unlucky in 83 i believe he was the best rider in the world that year on stats Lee is the better in my book.Certainly on the WF record also i know Lee was finished after 83 but he was up there easily with Nielsen,Erik,Sigalos, Penhall a new generation Peter was finished really by 80/81as a possible winner.

But why forget those events – just because PC had a better record? Lee’s record in world finals was marginally better than PC granted (better average, i’d say a gold and two bronze is fractionally better than a gold and two silver, though PC deserves credit for making more finals), but in every other respect PC’s record was better. 83 stats would suggest Lee was the third best in the world, behind Hans and Eric, though at his peak that season he was unstoppable (THAT demolition of Carter!). He only made the rostrum in the final due to Hans puncture though.

The argument that can be made in faour of Lee is not what he did achieve (PC’s achievement IMHO dwarf Lees) but what he could have achieved. when he rode that last final at Norden, he was roughly the same age as PC, Erik and Tai when they won their first titles, and younger than Penhall and Hans.

gustix, on 27 Jan 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

I thought you would have heard of the leading website - The Speedway Researcher?

Yes I am acquainted with that excellent site– however those war time meetings weren’t listed in the “special” section along with the 46-48 British Riders Champs or the World Champs, hence my query. Thanks to you and Norbold for your responses, I’ve now located them, and will peruse when I have time.

sidney, on 29 Jan 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

An impressive list Andy, am chuffed Lee is in front of Collins and Penhall agree with all of them except Pedersen he would not get in my 16.

I think Nicki has to be regarded as one of the top 16 of all time. You can’t fluke three world titles under the GP system that he has ridden under, in at least one of those seasons he was indisputably the best rider across all competitions. Nicki seems to be the most under rated multi world champ of all time. That said, he doesn’t make my own top dozen.

A really good read can't say i disagree with much of that, 83 i thought was a good year thinking back Olsen was then still riding at a really high level.

[waiheke1 4,295]

83 was a year where there seemed no real stand out rider, with penhall gone and carter not matching the heights of the previous season. Nielsen gundersen and lee arguably a notch ahead of sigalos sanders and carter with the likes of olsen morton also world class. A different world final venue and arguably any of those could hsve won it.

[stratton 1,491]

83 was a year where there seemed no real stand out rider, with penhall gone and carter not matching the heights of the previous season. Nielsen gundersen and lee arguably a notch ahead of sigalos sanders and carter with the likes of olsen morton also world class. A different world final venue and arguably any of those could hsve won it.

Went to Norden got there at six in the morning ,was p.....g down thought the meeting would certainly be off.I liked the track it was not a great final but the turning points were when Lee had a bummer of a ride against Kenny and Sanders who gated Muller was not tough anough on him who would of thought that of Billy.

[waiheke1 4,295]

I was there too sid. A poor final in terms of racing (morton v shirra th e only good race) but egon was superb.

Need to ride hard to win the world final, look at the way lee moved penhall in 80, penhall moved nielsen in 81. Tbh though, no matter how hard sanders had ridden muller had the speed to pass anyone

[stratton 1,491]

I was there too sid. A poor final in terms of racing (morton v shirra th e only good race) but egon was superb.

Need to ride hard to win the world final, look at the way lee moved penhall in 80, penhall moved nielsen in 81. Tbh though, no matter how hard sanders had ridden muller had the speed to pass anyone

Yes couldn't believe it Lee had been flying before hand, was good in practice but Egon hats off he deserved it no doubt.A couple of weeks later Lee rode ok in the Ole farewell and in October at some time destroyed Nielsen and a good line up to win the pride of the east i believe he broke the track record going back Muller deserved every credit for his title win.

[ColinMills 1,728]

hands up for bein off topic here, but with managers having less tactical moves in todays league, anyone agree

riders/managers could go back to choosing whether they want gate 1 and 3 or 2 and 4?

[WestGorton1884 621]

The riders I've actually seen ride...

 

 

1/ Ivan Mauger

2/ Ole Olsen

3/ Anders Michanek

4/ Barry Briggs

5/ Peter Collins

6/ Bruce Penhall

7/ Michael Lee

8/ Dennis Sigalos

[WestGorton1884 621]

Michael Lee was a brilliant rider , loved watching him around Hyde Road , but he wasn't in the same class as PC . imo of course