Scunthorpe Stags Vs Kent Kings (nl) - Sunday, March 30th

[semion 2,192]

I would have thought Matt Ford would want to strengthen this team up. He is a born winner.

[Great Central 226]

IMO in the the National League all riders should be paid the same. At the Promoter's meeting before the season begins a price should be agreed say £10/£15 a point and No More or No Less this could possibly even things out a little.

Totally agree and it should be enforced. Mileage rates also.

Any other money such as proceeds from sponsorship and 50:50 raffles should be totally separate from that paid by the clubs. Hopefully that would stop the have/have not situation occurring and then riders would go to the teams who they believe will be best for their development and not who pay the best rates.

It seems simple to run like this but since it hasn't happened so far, one can only presume that it is more difficult to enforce than it seems.

[June 203]

 

Just because you had them as a 15 year old, doesn't mean that the team wasn't built to win everything.

 

The approximate starting averages of the 2007 team (taken from final averages in 06, but contains all meetings so not 100% accurate)

 

Josh Auty 10.12

Tai Woffinden 9.98

Richie Dennis 9.02

Andrew Tully 7.70

Scott Richardson 5.03

Byron Bekker 6.67

 

There is no info on Joe Haines (He had won the British U15 championship the year before and was wanted by basically everyone) Assuming he is a 3, the rough team average that Scunthorpe built to was 51.52. Now THAT is winning at all costs.

I remember this so well. 2006 such a successful memorable year for the youngsters ( take a look at the age of the kids then ) they were all mates such a happy bunch of lads, always clowning about. spare a thought! dont you think after winning the league once they'd all be up for doing it again in 2007? That team probably picked itself!...HAPPY DAYS........Youngsters bring something special to the sport....Enthusiasm !!!!!!!Also Grades of the riders was the order of the day wasn't it?

[greyhoundp 990]

Totally agree and it should be enforced. Mileage rates also.

Any other money such as proceeds from sponsorship and 50:50 raffles should be totally separate from that paid by the clubs. Hopefully that would stop the have/have not situation occurring and then riders would go to the teams who they believe will be best for their development and not who pay the best rates.

It seems simple to run like this but since it hasn't happened so far, one can only presume that it is more difficult to enforce than it seems.

 

So how can you enforce it ?. As a promoter i can agree to pay official rates, then aside from this there is the good old cash in hand, thats always gone on, and will continue to do so, NO way that you can enforce official pay rates, there are to many ways around it.

[Halifaxtiger 5,318]

And all of them started with averages at or around 3 with Scunthorpe...thats a team thats built not bought..so I fail to see your argument

Completely different to todays teams where the best riders are cherry picked from others and paid premier league wages..now THAT is win at all costs

 

Vog's point is entirely valid. The fact that they started at Scunthorpe on 3.00 point averages is entirely irrelevant (and I think you will find that Dennis started at Boston and Tully's average from Armadale was well above 3) because they started the 2007 season on around 60.

 

If that's not building a team to win at all costs I am not sure what is, and I can just imagine what the reaction from Scunthorpe would have been if they had been told to break it up.

 

In addition, the only true unknown was Woffinden. Auty and Haines both had competed (and, if memory serves me correctly, won) in the U15 championships. They were cherry picked in exactly the same way as Dudley or Mildenhall might do now (the only difference being that neither of those two had ridden for any other clubs), and they almost certainly weren't paid £10/10p NL rates.

 

Of the Mildenhall side, Jacobs, Bates, Mountain, Kingston & Coles have also all started at that team around the 3-4pt mark. To suggest that they (and Cradley, for that matter) merely parasitically prey on others is nonsense.

 

The simple truth is that Scunthorpe built the strongest team ever seen at third tier level and they paid over standard NL pay rates to do it. Now, they grossly object to other teams doing exactly the same thing. That's hypocrisy.

[lucifer sam 3,953]

 

Vog's point is entirely valid. The fact that they started at Scunthorpe on 3.00 point averages is entirely irrelevant (and I think you will find that Dennis started at Boston and Tully's average from Armadale was well above 3) because they started the 2007 season on around 60.

 

If that's not building a team to win at all costs I am not sure what is, and I can just imagine what the reaction from Scunthorpe would have been if they had been told to break it up.

 

In addition, the only true unknown was Woffinden. Auty and Haines both had competed (and, if memory serves me correctly, won) in the U15 championships. They were cherry picked in exactly the same way as Dudley or Mildenhall might do now (the only difference being that neither of those two had ridden for any other clubs), and they almost certainly weren't paid £10/10p NL rates.

 

Of the Mildenhall side, Jacobs, Bates, Mountain, Kingston & Coles have also all started at that team around the 3-4pt mark. To suggest that they (and Cradley, for that matter) merely parasitically prey on others is nonsense.

 

The simple truth is that Scunthorpe built the strongest team ever seen at third tier level and they paid over standard NL pay rates to do it. Now, they grossly object to other teams doing exactly the same thing. That's hypocrisy.

 

Hi HT,

 

I agree that the 2007 Scunthorpe Scorpions were the strongest ever team at this level. I don't agree with some of your other points.

 

I will look back to check, but I think the 2007 Scunthorpe Scorpions came in at around 36 grading points - well below the limit for that season (yes, the grading system was barking mad, but you can't blame Scunny for that, I think it pre-dated the club!).

 

And from what I recall, the 2007 Scorpions were more-or-less the previous season's riders, plus Joe Haines, not a cherry-picked selection of the best riders. They hardly enticed the riders through big wages - they were already at the club! I think the strength of the side was more to do with Kenny Smith's experience at this level and having a very good eye for talent. An example was Andrew Tully - when I saw him in the Armadale vs Oxford match in 2005, he scored a big fat blob. However, Kenny Smith saw the potential in him, and at Scunny he became a big scorer.

 

Scunny certainly were not the biggest payers in '07. I know which club were by a long chalk... the club who poached a rider from Oxford while we were closed down by offering him double the money (I did object to the club concerned doing that; I never had a problem with the rider concerned or his father). The same club tried to poach a second Oxford rider, again by offering him double the money. Scunny didn't steal or try to steal any of Oxford's riders.

 

Onto 2014, and Scunny are just getting on doing their own thing this year. The third-tier has always been a compromise between clubs with different agendas. Scunny are just getting on with carrying out their own agenda, which is to develop riders for Scunthorpe and Poole. And yes, of course, that agenda is different than it was in 2007. I don't think anyone has tried to claim any different. And where has the club issued a statement to say it "grossly objects" about the other clubs. The club simply has its own vision about the NL and the sort of team it wants to track.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited April 3, 2014 by lucifer sam

[Great Central 226]

 

As a promoter i can agree to pay official rates, then aside from this there is the good old cash in hand, thats always gone on, and will continue to do so, NO way that you can enforce official pay rates, there are to many ways around it.

And that is why I added the words "one can only presume that it is more difficult to enforce than it seems."

You have indeed explained the practical way to get round it although it is always dubious paying cash in hand to anyone however if all the NL promoters signed up to it at their AGM, then the rule can be enforced by a code of conduct.

[bullet 72]

Unless the rules have been changed and no one has bothered to tell us Lee Dicken cannot be declared in the same team as Steve Jones as only one rider over 30 is permitted.

 

Might be a bit of a stumbling block which all come from previous disagrements about team building.

This obviously had a place to stop teams full of older experieced riders rather than bringing in new younger riders but think in the case of the stags and possibly buxton isnt really relevant as the riders are there for a different role rather than to make a strong team.

 

Rules look a bit dubious anyway and appear to possibly allow more than one depending on interpretation (dont you just love our rules for ambiguity)

 

from the rules interesting wording highlighted

 

 

19.9 TEAM COMPOSITION

19.9.1 A Team’s initial Declaration must not exceed 40.00 points MA for 7 Riders.

19.9.1.1 It must also not exceed 40.00 points when re-declared (permanent or temporary) except

where the MA of the introduced Rider is equal to, or lower than the Rider being replaced.

19.9.2 Initial Team Declarations may include:

19.9.2.1 A Rider with a PL MA of 6.00 or below if not declared in a PL 1–7 at the start of the season,

although any such Rider who moves back into the PL will be ineligible if he has a PL MA of

5.00 or above. NB. A Rider with a PL MA of 5.00 or below joining a NL Team after losing a

PL Team place may not remain in the NL Team if he subsequently gains a PL Team place,

19.9.2.2 A current PL Rider under 25 years-old with a PL MA of 4.00 or below at the start of the

Season.

19.9.2.3 Only one established (ie. has achieved a League MA) Rider over 30 years old, unless that

Rider continues to ride for the same team as in the previous season.

19.9.2.4 One new (no previous Team appearance) Rider over 30 years old.

19.9.2.5 All Riders must hold a UK Passport or have UK Patriality.

19.9.3 A Rider taken out of a Team cannot be re-introduced into that Team within 14 days.

19.9.4 Where a Rider is additionally declared in a PL or EL Team, the EL & PL Team shall have

priority, except that a Rider nominated for the NLRC must appear in the NLRC.

19.9.5 It is mandatory for Riders to appear in the NL 4TT, NL BP & NLRC; Riders will be suspended

from their next 2 Home Meetings in contravention, subject to MC confirmation.

 

 

 

From that it seems to say that these rules only count for initial team decleration (which is where i think it might allow it but there is then not a set of rules for redeclaration except for points limit)

Then seems to say if an over 30 continue to ride for the same team its fine (assume that means you can bring one in and the other who was 29/30 previous year is wtill with you and now over 30)

Also you can have more if they are new (i assume no previous team apperance means for any team at league level not just the team involved)

 

Not getting into the scorpions 2006/7 debate as it was before i started going to watch them but I will say what did the club then do after that did they :

 

a). Step up to the next level more fitting with the fiancial setting they were in (crowdnumbers allow it obvioulsly not riders as they did nearly none left as all sighned for higher level teams dueto the asset rules at teh time)

 

. Spend year in year out doing the same getting the best riders and play big fish little pond

 

 

Just for for how about this stags team

 

Stefan Nielsen 8.00

Steve Worrall 7.09

Oliver Greenwood 6.89

Max Clegg 6.27

Luke Chessell 4.22

Matt williamson 3.33

Danny Phillips 3.00

Total 38.8

 

 

6 out of those 7 started thier league racing at scuthorpe. 4 I believe are scunthorpe assetts (although not sure on some)

and all fit the "developing riders" critera that are being used

Chances of scunny fielding that team ......................................................nil

 

Why as that would bankrupt rob paying that team what money they will currently being paid.

Edited April 3, 2014 by The Scunthorpe bullet

[Halifaxtiger 5,318]

 

Hi HT,

 

I agree that the 2007 Scunthorpe Scorpions were the strongest ever team at this level. I don't agree with some of your other points.

 

I will look back to check, but I think the 2007 Scunthorpe Scorpions came in at around 36 grading points - well below the limit for that season (yes, the grading system was barking mad, but you can't blame Scunny for that, I think it pre-dated the club!).

 

And from what I recall, the 2007 Scorpions were more-or-less the previous season's riders, plus Joe Haines, not a cherry-picked selection of the best riders. They hardly enticed the riders through big wages - they were already at the club! I think the strength of the side was more to do with Kenny Smith's experience at this level and having a very good eye for talent. An example was Andrew Tully - when I saw him in the Armadale vs Oxford match in 2005, he scored a big fat blob. However, Kenny Smith saw the potential in him, and at Scunny he became a big scorer.

 

Scunny certainly were not the biggest payers in '07. I know which club were by a long chalk... the club who poached a rider from Oxford while we were closed down by offering him double the money (I did object to the club concerned doing that; I never had a problem with the rider concerned or his father). The same club tried to poach a second Oxford rider, again by offering him double the money. Scunny didn't steal or try to steal any of Oxford's riders.

 

Onto 2014, and Scunny are just getting on doing their own thing this year. The third-tier has always been a compromise between clubs with different agendas. Scunny are just getting on with carrying out their own agenda, which is to develop riders for Scunthorpe and Poole. And yes, of course, that agenda is different than it was in 2007. I don't think anyone has tried to claim any different. And where has the club issued a statement to say it "grossly objects" about the other clubs. The club simply has its own vision about the NL and the sort of team it wants to track.

 

All the best

Rob

 

 

Very fair post indeed, Rob

 

In truth, I don't have an issue with what Scunny did back in 2007 and I don't really have a problem with what they are doing now. Indeed, I don't really have an issue with Scunthorpe at all. I rank tracks from 1(the best) to 5 (the worst) and EWR is one of only 4 that gets a 1. The set up is a model of how to create, maintain and improve a speedway stadium. Their record of producing young riders is probably bettered only by Eastbourne back in the 1970's.

 

Its fair to say that the only problem I have is with certain Scunthorpe supporters (although the promotion have not similar statements recently, they most certainly have done so in the past) slamming NL teams for building sides to satisfy the needs of the paying supporters by winning and paying more than standard pay rates to do it and, in doing so, utterly ignoring the plain truth that that is precisely what they did themselves. This isn't about the biggest payer, its about paying more than the league allows.

 

Of course the agenda has changed, I really wouldn't expect otherwise in the circumstances and that is both realistic and fully understandable. What I would expect, though, is a bit of acceptance that the stand alone clubs (and indeed double up ones that cannot have the financial safeguard of double header meetings) need to build sides to win to ensure their very survival. I would say that a Scunthorpe supporter, having been there, would appreciate that as much as anyone.