Warsaw Gp Saturday 18th April

[stratton 1,491]

Get back to your dishes

And cleaning the toilets.

[SCB 0]

you are right they should hang their heads in disgrace...... edit: but so should the ref, the race director, the jury, speed sport, & BSI...... did I miss anyone?!

Agreed. The whole lot of them either screwed up or used a screw up to scrw things up some more when with a little bit of will, determination and doing a professional job while thinking of the fans could have seen the whole farce sorted a lot better. Had they not spent an hour arsing about with the tapes then they would have had an hour to actually do some work on the track - the riders would have probably been more receptive to it too. But the riders when stropping off should have probably thought a little about the fans and given it a go, surely for 4 more heats to see if the track did become dangerous.

 

The referee should have not been rubbish, between him and Phil Morris they probably had Magic and Doyley wound up anyway and Woffy was probably not best pleased. Then when they did re-run a heat that upset Nicki. So between them they were upsetting riders who probably just wanted it over or to hit someone.

 

Nobody comes out of this whole sorry mess looking good. Ole should have done a better job on the track, the referee should have been consistent and fair. Phil should not have chased after Nicki and showed he was willing to back down. The riders should have gone out to provide a show to the fans.

[E I Addio 15,845]

Still none the wiser. Track men can be criticized. Does this mean riders can be too? Or are riders still sacred and must not be criticized?

Of course the riders can be critised if people wish, subject to the proviso that they are the ones riding the. bikes. Unfortunately , on the forum in general not just this thread, 75% of posters seem to think that knee jerk reaction and hyperbole as if they were writing headlines for The Sun is a substitute for constructive criticism.

 

Let's try to look at it more calmly:-

 

Phil Morris comes in for a lot of stick (Phil Morris hang your head in shame" screamed one poster-do people really still speak like that in the 21st century) , but I don't know, and I don't think anybody on here knows, what exactly do his responsibilities include. Part of the clue is in his title ~ "Race director" but it's not clear where his responsibilities end and the FIM jury starts is not clear, and as I said before Ashley Holloway, who has more insight than most on here has tweeted that the blame lies with nameless ones other than Phil so criticism of him may-I stress MAY- be premature, but that won't stop the lynch mob.

 

The failings of Jim Lawrence are there for all to see, inconsistent decisions, failure to spot the uneven tapes, taking so long to communicate Jason Doyles exclusion etc should not be acceptable in an NL match, let alone a GP , and those failings set the scene for what was to follow so he is one that must be in the firing line.

 

Ole Olsen we probably will not get to the bottom of. Clearly there were problems with the track hence the cancellation of practice but whether it is his fault or whether he was not given sufficient time remains to be seen. I am biased because I never did like Olsen so I'll say no more.

 

Then we have the FIM jury. At the risk of repeating myself they were the ones that pulled the plug on the meeting. They have questions to answer. The FIM statement says the track was unfit. I wasnt in the room with the riders so I don't know what was said. we can infer certain things but the bottom line is that they, not the riders signed the meeting off due to an unfit track. That is not in dispute. That raises the question of how they approved the track 12 heats earlier and how it supposedly became unfit in only half the meeting. They are the officials, they need to explain.

 

All I will say about the riders is I am still not clear what supposed motive they have for walking out if they did not have genuine feelings about track safety, but I don't Belive that strong personalities like Tai, Holder, Bomber and especially Zagar who was having a good night are so weak willed as to go along with the walk out simply because Greg and Nicki pulled the wool over their eyes. For my part I think the truth of what happened there has yet to come out.

[oldace 1,678]

Of course the riders can be critised if people wish, subject to the proviso that they are the ones riding the. bikes. Unfortunately , on the forum in general not just this thread, 75% of posters seem to think that knee jerk reaction and hyperbole as if they were writing headlines for The Sun is a substitute for constructive criticism.

 

Let's try to look at it more calmly:-

 

Phil Morris comes in for a lot of stick (Phil Morris hang your head in shame" screamed one poster-do people really still speak like that in the 21st century) , but I don't know, and I don't think anybody on here knows, what exactly do his responsibilities include. Part of the clue is in his title ~ "Race director" but it's not clear where his responsibilities end and the FIM jury starts is not clear, and as I said before Ashley Holloway, who has more insight than most on here has tweeted that the blame lies with nameless ones other than Phil so criticism of him may-I stress MAY- be premature, but that won't stop the lynch mob.

 

The failings of Jim Lawrence are there for all to see, inconsistent decisions, failure to spot the uneven tapes, taking so long to communicate Jason Doyles exclusion etc should not be acceptable in an NL match, let alone a GP , and those failings set the scene for what was to follow so he is one that must be in the firing line.

 

Ole Olsen we probably will not get to the bottom of. Clearly there were problems with the track hence the cancellation of practice but whether it is his fault or whether he was not given sufficient time remains to be seen. I am biased because I never did like Olsen so I'll say no more.

Then we have the FIM jury. At the risk of repeating myself they were the ones that pulled the plug on the meeting. They have questions to answer. The FIM statement says the track was unfit. I wasnt in the room with the riders so I don't know what was said. we can infer certain things but the bottom line is that they, not the riders signed the meeting off due to an unfit track. That is not in dispute. That raises the question of how they approved the track 12 heats earlier and how it supposedly became unfit in only half the meeting. They are the officials, they need to explain.

All I will say about the riders is I am still not clear what supposed motive they have for walking out if they did not have genuine feelings about track safety, but I don't Belive that strong personalities like Tai, Holder, Bomber and especially Zagar who was having a good night are so weak willed as to go along with the walk out simply because Greg and Nicki pulled the wool over their eyes. For my part I think the truth of what happened there has yet to come out.

 

 

You don't need to keep repeating it, we are all quite aware who's jurisdiction the decision to cancel comes under.

 

Look who that Jury is though.

 

Tony Steele.

 

Well we saw him in action at Belle Vue v Poole last year with the infamous "moisture coming out of the track" nonsense once heat 10 was reached. He clearly showed he was merely a puppet dancing to a tune that night. A weak individual who allows himself to be manipulated.

 

Jim Lawrence

 

By heat 12 Jim was flailing like a drowning man and was probably happy to have it stopped and be put out of his misery.

 

The other member (a Pole I believe) I am not aware of so can't comment on his credentials

 

However it is dressed up and whoever s decision the call off ultimately was, the reality, as we all know, is that rider power got that GP cancelled and that is wholly unacceptable

[Grand Central 2,654]

Of course the riders can be critised if people wish, subject to the proviso that they are the ones riding the. bikes. Unfortunately , on the forum in general not just this thread, 75% of posters seem to think that knee jerk reaction and hyperbole as if they were writing headlines for The Sun is a substitute for constructive criticism.

 

Let's try to look at it more calmly:-

 

Phil Morris comes in for a lot of stick (Phil Morris hang your head in shame" screamed one poster-do people really still speak like that in the 21st century) , but I don't know, and I don't think anybody on here knows, what exactly do his responsibilities include. Part of the clue is in his title ~ "Race director" but it's not clear where his responsibilities end and the FIM jury starts is not clear, and as I said before Ashley Holloway, who has more insight than most on here has tweeted that the blame lies with nameless ones other than Phil so criticism of him may-I stress MAY- be premature, but that won't stop the lynch mob.

 

The failings of Jim Lawrence are there for all to see, inconsistent decisions, failure to spot the uneven tapes, taking so long to communicate Jason Doyles exclusion etc should not be acceptable in an NL match, let alone a GP , and those failings set the scene for what was to follow so he is one that must be in the firing line.

 

Ole Olsen we probably will not get to the bottom of. Clearly there were problems with the track hence the cancellation of practice but whether it is his fault or whether he was not given sufficient time remains to be seen. I am biased because I never did like Olsen so I'll say no more.

 

Then we have the FIM jury. At the risk of repeating myself they were the ones that pulled the plug on the meeting. They have questions to answer. The FIM statement says the track was unfit. I wasnt in the room with the riders so I don't know what was said. we can infer certain things but the bottom line is that they, not the riders signed the meeting off due to an unfit track. That is not in dispute. That raises the question of how they approved the track 12 heats earlier and how it supposedly became unfit in only half the meeting. They are the officials, they need to explain.

 

All I will say about the riders is I am still not clear what supposed motive they have for walking out if they did not have genuine feelings about track safety, but I don't Belive that strong personalities like Tai, Holder, Bomber and especially Zagar who was having a good night are so weak willed as to go along with the walk out simply because Greg and Nicki pulled the wool over their eyes. For my part I think the truth of what happened there has yet to come out.

 

 

So yes, thank you for looking at things calmly.

But it still arrives at pretty much the same, rather pitiful, conclusions.

 

A whole group of officials and 'backroom' people did their job in a p!ss poor fashion.

Thus producing a 'perfect storm' of inadequate practice track, barely adequate raceday track, malfunctioning tapes, malfunctioning referee and ineffectual race director.

So the riders got so upset, that they spat out their dummies.

And by virtue of 'rider power' were able to get the wet-weekend-trio in the Jury to call it off.

 

And 50000 spectators plus the massive TV audience, are supposed to look at this calmy!!

 

Antiquated phrase or not.

It needs to be brought back into common usage for ALL these people.

They should hang their heads in shame.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Grand Central

[waiheke1 4,295]

Would add also that Greg and Nicki may not have been "ring leaders" but rather spokespeople for the riders due to their experience.

I seem to recall Ivan mauger being accused of stirring up the riders over an unfit track at the 81 inter continental final, but penhall came out subsequently and said the riders had asked him to be their spokesperson. In that meeting the riders voted 14-2 to abandon the meeting,but the meeting continued. One of the two hqppenned to be ole Olsen, who was also co promoter of the meeting!

[oldace 1,678]

Would add also that Greg and Nicki may not have been "ring leaders" but rather spokespeople for the riders due to their experience.

I seem to recall Ivan mauger being accused of stirring up the riders over an unfit track at the 81 inter continental final, but penhall came out subsequently and said the riders had asked him to be their spokesperson. In that meeting the riders voted 14-2 to abandon the meeting,but the meeting continued. One of the two hqppenned to be ole Olsen, who was also co promoter of the meeting!

 

And there was a problem with the tapes that day too

[Jonimac 92]

E I Addio

A really good post, simply sticking to the facts. Of which there are not many at the moment.
Having ploughed through all the pages of this thread, much of which reminds me of being down the pub with my mates and having having a good rant after at least 5 pints - plenty of emotional opinions but not a lot of clear facts.
Don't get me wrong. I like that, and think that is one of the plus points of the forum, where you can let off a bit of steam, and talk about your favourite sport.

However, as far as I can see, the facts are

(1) The riders went into a room for a meeting.
(2) The FIM Jury called the result after heat 12 due to track conditions.

As the FIM jury didnt actually ride the tracks for 12 heats, I think you can reasonably infer that the riders have given them their opinion on it's safety.
Safety is not just about looking at what has happened over the previous 12 heats.
It is about what potentially might happen over the remaining heats.
I accept that the TV pictures suggested it was reasonable, as did the commentators. You can ignore rider interviews (which seemed to be played on the stadium PA system too), as they would have to be very careful about talking openly about safety on a temporary track.

If the riders have insisted it is not safe, then surely as speedway fans we should accept this?
I imagine this acceptance would get more and more difficult depending on how much you have shelled out to get there from the UK or USA !
Personally, I get Eurosport free with my Sky subscription, and I had to walk from the fridge, wih my beer in my hand, all the way to the sofa to watch it.

If I could hope for one thing, it is that this is a turning point for the GP. If you want to be ambitious about bringing the sport into eyecatching venues, then the track has to be made to catch the eye !
Unless it is weather related, no excuses should now be acceptable.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Jonimac

[BWitcher 12,453]

I accept that the TV pictures suggested it was reasonable, as did the commentators. You can ignore rider interviews (which seemed to be played on the stadium PA system too), as they would have to be very careful about talking openly about safety on a temporary track.

 

 

 

Since when, ever, have riders been quiet about track conditions. If a track is dangerous they ALWAYS bring it up in interviews.

[Midland Red 2,383]

E I Addio

 

A really good post, simply sticking to the facts. Of which there are not many at the moment.

Having ploughed through all the pages of this thread, much of which reminds me of being down the pub with my mates and having having a good rant after at least 5 pints - plenty of emotional opinions but not a lot of clear facts.

Don't get me wrong. I like that, and think that is one of the plus points of the forum, where you can let off a bit of steam, and talk about your favourite sport.

 

However, as far as I can see, the facts are

 

(1) The riders went into a room for a meeting.

(2) The FIM Jury called the result after heat 12 due to track conditions.

 

As the FIM jury didnt actually ride the tracks for 12 heats, I think you can reasonably infer that the riders have given them their opinion on it's safety.

Safety is not just about looking at what has happened over the previous 12 heats.

It is about what potentially might happen over the remaining heats.

I accept that the TV pictures suggested it was reasonable, as did the commentators. You can ignore rider interviews (which seemed to be played on the stadium PA system too), as they would have to be very careful about talking openly about safety on a temporary track.

 

If the riders have insisted it is not safe, then surely as speedway fans we should accept this?

I imagine this acceptance would get more and more difficult depending on how much you have shelled out to get there from the UK or USA !

Personally, I get Eurosport free with my Sky subscription, and I had to walk from the fridge, wih my beer in my hand, all the way to the sofa to watch it.

 

If I could hope for one thing, it is that this is a turning point for the GP. If you want to be ambitious about bringing the sport into eyecatching venues, then the track has to be made to catch the eye !

Unless it is weather related, no excuses should now be acceptable.

 

Totally agree, 100% with you, Jonimac

[New Science 1,059]

Since when, ever, have riders been quiet about track conditions. If a track is dangerous they ALWAYS bring it up in interviews.

Except at Warsaw where there were no interviews ! or not a mention on anyones Twitter account the same Twitter that the riders can't usually keep off. Bit of gagging going on ?

[theflyingkiwi 136]

This is taken from the latest article on the SGP website about Zagars win on Saturday night.

 

'Even some of the most seasoned SGP stars had never started races without having tapes in front of them, which left them understandably unsettled.'

 

In my opinion having been there on Saturday night and having watched it through again twice, if the tapes had been working then the Grand Prix would have reached completion or at least till heat 20. It was plain to see that some of the riders were not happy with the green light start as for some it took away the advantage that they got from the gate. When Bomber can out trap you, you know your in trouble. Combine this with a CHALLENGING track, it shouldn't have been such a surprise that some of the riders wanted this meeting called off.

[Grand Central 2,654]

This is all about the starts.

Everything else is smokescreen.

[oldace 1,678]

This is all about the starts.

Everything else is smokescreen.

 

Of course it is. Like a few of us have been saying all along while others preferred not to believe the evidence of their own eyses and go along with the unfit track cobblers.

 

The green light start should not have been an issue though and it is clearly laid out in the rules as an alternative when the gate malfunctions.

 

Of course the reality is it ultimately comes down to weak officials allowing the riders to decide if a meeting carries on or not.

[racers and royals 8,732]

Google translation of Sportowefakty article today.

 

One of Gniezno law firms have already sent the first request for payment to the Polish Association Motorowemu on the organization LOTTO Warsaw Speedway Grand Prix of Poland.

Law Office Klejborowski / Bernaciak of Gniezno is the first that sent the request for payment PZM on the organization LOTTO Warsaw Speedway Grand Prix of Poland at the National Stadium. Polish Motor Union maintains that he is not guilty of scandal organizational and company blames Ole Olsen, who was responsible for preparing the track. However, the Dane denies the allegations, claiming that the criticism is unjustified. Why the operation of the Gniezno glass office? - To date, we have signed up to a few dozen fans and still call the successive interested. Interestingly, the people are so upset that they do not heed the ability to recover costs and relatively low amounts. They feel deeply offended by the attitude of the organizer of this event. Shortly after the event, we have a legal analysis of the case and in our opinion, there are grounds for an investigation by the organizer, ie. PZMot damages including reimbursement of tickets and justified cases, the reimbursement of travel costs. After PZMot the moment of buying a ticket every fan has concluded an individual contract, which definitely is not fulfilled - Klejborowski attorney said.








In the media there was already prepared information about collective lawsuit against the organizers of the Grand Prix at the National Stadium. As it turns out, Gniezno firm has chosen a different path proceedings against PZM. - We would like to point out that in contrast to the emerging media suggestions, yet we do not anticipate filing a class action lawsuit, but we intend to act on behalf of each client individually. It will streamline and speed up the whole process. Thanks to our office yesterday sent the first request for payment. PZMot fans sell tickets, which outlined, that is the organizer of this event, and should take responsibility and pay back the money. Because fans bought tickets to the event, including - as everyone knows - 23 races. After all, if the fans knew that the watch only 12 races (in addition to the falls and without tape home - which in a sense have an impact on the outcome of sporting competition), it is probably most of them never would decide to buy a ticket. Important matter is that the cause of the interrupt event was force majeure, which would allow the organizer to break free from potential liability. It's hard to blame the organizer, when it rains, so the track is not suitable for use (as in sport speedway is not anything special, after all). In this particular case, as indicated by the organizer and evidence, the cause of the interrupt event was human error, which consists in the wrong orientation track surface - Klejborowski added.

Gnieźnieńska office emphasizes that the main aspect of the case is not that poor preparation for Saturday race track. - It is immaterial that, according to the position of PZMot, it does not track paving PZMot prepared or provided a tape home. According to the law because it corresponds directly for the operation of all persons and entities with which organizes the event. We are convinced that the organizer at least for the sake of their image and for the sake of the fans slag adequately atone for it spoiled holiday. In the absence of an adequate response, we will be forced to refer matters on behalf of clients before the court, to enforce the claims asserted. Importantly, customers who have applied to our office are willing to devote their time to pursue their claims before the court as well - patron Klejborowski ended.