Mark 1,497 Posted February 6, 2015 You have to be really good to win more than one world title, he is obviously very popular with everyone in the sport, a really nice person but I wouldn't go out of my way to watch him race. His longevity is based on playing it safe. If every rider rode the same way as Greg Hancock the sport would be boring. If he misses the gate then he 99% settles for where he sits in the race. This post will get criticism from Greg's die hard fans but its just my opinion. If we had 15 Greg's in the GP there would be nothing to talk about. We will miss Nicki and Gollob more than we'll miss Greg when they are all retired. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted February 6, 2015 Not only is Greg boring and has a fake grin he rode for O*ford and Reading .Are you serious? or is it a tongue in cheek comment.? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucifer sam 3,960 Posted February 6, 2015 No you wouldn't come up with 25 worthy World Finalists. 1981: Bruce Penhall Ole Olsen Tommy Knudsen Erik Gundersen Kenny Carter Jan Andersson Egon Muller Dave Jessup Hans Nielsen Michael Lee Chris Morton Larry Ross Dennis Sigalos Kelly Moran Bo Petersen Bobby Schwartz Billy Sanders Phil Crump Les Collins Gordon Kennett John Davis Edward Jancarz Zenon Plech Shawn Moran Peter Collins All the best Rob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,659 Posted February 6, 2015 Are you serious? or is it a tongue in cheek comment.? Are break it down ....is Greg Boring ? yes. Has he got a fake Grin ? yes . Did he ride for O*ford yes . Did he ride Reading yes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) No you wouldn't come up with 25 worthy World Finalists. You'd have a list, who apart from the top boys, would be full of riders of a lesser level who looked great because they were riding in a weak format and whom you rarely saw get beat. Schwartz would waltz into the GP's? Why would he? Based upon? He got a maximum in a World Pairs Final? That means he won 3 races of note in one meeting.. i.e. beating the Danes, English and the Aussies.. although you could only really call Sanders top class of the Aussie pair (Gary Guglielmi the other). The Finns, New Zealand and the Czechs.. nothing to write home about by beating them. As for the World Team Final... boy what a tough meeting that was! What with the mighty West Germany and Czechoslovakia being two of the four teams. You can just as easily point out storming meetings that riders such as Martin Vaculik, Bartosz Zmarlik, Troy Batchelor and Martin Smolinski have had in major events... none of them you would class as being amongst the 'big names'.... boy its tough these days... an EL reserve can win a GP less than 1 year later Back in those days you could finish joint 1st in a World Final without even racing in Europe, and having only had 1 years experience prior... That would never, ever happen now. The standard then was higher whatever you say,no doubt in my mind,and a rider like Schwartz now would have a field day in the EL.The GP series this year for example is missing at least three top class riders Emil,Laguta,Ward so this year is not the strongest like some of the one off finals.In my opinion Mauger,Briggs,Fundin would of won more titles in a GP format and looking at it NIelsen he could of won at least 8 world titles.?The one off final was harder to win in my opinion real pressure tough qualifying rounds and it took a different quality to win it so dont underestimate how tough it was. 1981: Bruce Penhall Ole Olsen Tommy Knudsen Erik Gundersen Kenny Carter Jan Andersson Egon Muller Dave Jessup Hans Nielsen Michael Lee Chris Morton Larry Ross Dennis Sigalos Kelly Moran Bo Petersen Bobby Schwartz Billy Sanders Phil Crump Les Collins Gordon Kennett John Davis Edward Jancarz Zenon Plech Shawn Moran Peter Collins All the best Rob Pretty good,fifteen world championship title wins in amongst that lot. Edited February 6, 2015 by sidney Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted February 6, 2015 The standard then was higher whatever you say,no doubt in my mind,and a rider like Schwartz now would have a field day in the EL.The GP series this year for example is missing at least three top class riders Emil,Laguta,Ward so this year is not the strongest like some of the one off finals.In my opinion Mauger,Briggs,Fundin would of won more titles in a GP format and looking at it NIelsen he could of won at least 8 world titles.?The one off final was harder to win in my opinion real pressure tough qualifying rounds and it took a different quality to win it so dont underestimate how tough it was. It wasn't. The standard was considerably lower. Riders could roll up to a meeting with a bike on the back of a car and score well. Chances of doing that now, virtually non existent. Heat leaders had it easy. Decent riders were made to look like stars simply by the format. A rider such as Troy Batchelor would have been a 10pt rider in those days just as Schwartz was. Someone like Rory Schlein would have been a 9pter and so on. As said, the World Final was so tough you could not even race in Europe, fly in for the meets and finish joint 1st. This is one of the reasons why the Brits have lagged behind.. we're still very much in the patter of the 80's in terms of professionalism. The Polish League wipes the floor with anything the British League has ever had in terms of depth. 1981: Bruce Penhall Ole Olsen Tommy Knudsen Erik Gundersen Kenny Carter Jan Andersson Egon Muller Dave Jessup Hans Nielsen Michael Lee Chris Morton Larry Ross Dennis Sigalos Kelly Moran Bo Petersen Bobby Schwartz Billy Sanders Phil Crump Les Collins Gordon Kennett John Davis Edward Jancarz Zenon Plech Shawn Moran Peter Collins All the best Rob Put 16 of those into a GP, and the rest of them into a format like the Elite League is now, you wouldn't be thinking over half of them were all that good. The John Davis's of the world would be around, or below Chris Harris level. It's the format of the leagues you see the riders race in that dictates how many 'star' riders there are.. Far more than the talent itself. This is why, then, just as it is now, you have a select group of riders who in each era stand out from the pack. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted February 6, 2015 Surely Gundersen has to be in there somewhere. If we're limiting it to ten, I would go for: Fundin Mauger Nielsen Briggs Gundersen Rickardsson Craven Moore Olsen Penhall Crump, Hancock and Pedersen, along with Young, Duggan, Wilkinson and Collins, would come in the next sub-group in positions 11-17. All the best Rob Indeed. Fundin used to put "Norwich Track Spare No 2" on the back of his bikes as a bit of kidology. All the best Rob crump for me is the best of the three times world champs, on the basis of his 10 consecutive rostrum finishes.the thing with eric is that he was probably only the best rider in the world in one season. And arguably would have won less world titles if the likes of penhall lee sigalos hadnt been lost to the sport.against that, he may well have won more but for hid injury. Tbh I could place him anywhere 7th-14th depending on the day, id say he was my number 11. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted February 6, 2015 It wasn't. The standard was considerably lower. Riders could roll up to a meeting with a bike on the back of a car and score well. Chances of doing that now, virtually non existent. Heat leaders had it easy. Decent riders were made to look like stars simply by the format. A rider such as Troy Batchelor would have been a 10pt rider in those days just as Schwartz was. Someone like Rory Schlein would have been a 9pter and so on. As said, the World Final was so tough you could not even race in Europe, fly in for the meets and finish joint 1st. This is one of the reasons why the Brits have lagged behind.. we're still very much in the patter of the 80's in terms of professionalism. The Polish League wipes the floor with anything the British League has ever had in terms of depth. Put 16 of those into a GP, and the rest of them into a format like the Elite League is now, you wouldn't be thinking over half of them were all that good. The John Davis's of the world would be around, or below Chris Harris level. It's the format of the leagues you see the riders race in that dictates how many 'star' riders there are.. Far more than the talent itself. This is why, then, just as it is now, you have a select group of riders who in each era stand out from the pack. Nonsense and i did not select that group but it was a pretty good one.But everyone is entitled to THERE OPINION right! so what you have said is not FACT so please don't mention that word. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted February 6, 2015 Nonsense and i did not select that group but it was a pretty good one.But everyone is entitled to THERE OPINION right! so what you have said is not FACT so please don't mention that word. It's not nonsense. The standard then was lower, there's no argument about that. The sport is far more professional now, any old rider will tell you that. That doesn't mean to say riders from then wouldn't be able to compete now, most would adapt.. some wouldn't. The same goes in reverse. The group is fine, no different to selecting a top 25 from pretty much any other year.. What it has the benefit of is history.. You look at the names of Hans Nielsen and Erik Gundersen in that group and you think a lot more highly of them now than you would have in 1981 when they were good promising youngsters. It also has its selection of 2nd and 3rd tier riders. Decent in their own right, but never a threat to the real top guys on a consistent basis... again just like any other era. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted February 6, 2015 It's not nonsense. The standard then was lower, there's no argument about that. The sport is far more professional now, any old rider will tell you that. That doesn't mean to say riders from then wouldn't be able to compete now, most would adapt.. some wouldn't. The same goes in reverse. The group is fine, no different to selecting a top 25 from pretty much any other year.. What it has the benefit of is history.. You look at the names of Hans Nielsen and Erik Gundersen in that group and you think a lot more highly of them now than you would have in 1981 when they were good promising youngsters. It also has its selection of 2nd and 3rd tier riders. Decent in their own right, but never a threat to the real top guys on a consistent basis... again just like any other era. Your comment about Erik/Hans is a strange one at that time they were both learning there craft paying there dues also Nielsen at that time was picked by some to win a title so he at the time was more than just promising.Those two as examples would of found the Gps an easy experience now,semis most meeting's finalists regular a different pressure but an easier one in my opinion as a mistake in one round now is not terminal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) Your comment about Erik/Hans is a strange one at that time they were both learning there craft paying there dues also Nielsen at that time was picked by some to win a title so he at the time was more than just promising.Those two as examples would of found the Gps an easy experience now,semis most meeting's finalists regular a different pressure but an easier one in my opinion as a mistake in one round now is not terminal. No it isn't strange for precisely the reason you have given. In 1981 nobody would have rated Gundersen and Nielsen as highly as they are rated now. They were promising yes, but hadn't yet won any World Titles. Yes of course those two would have found GP's easy. They found the World Finals easy as well. You talk about there being more depth in 1981.. Chris Holder was 24th in the Swedish League Averages last year. Hans Andersen 34th... In Poland Troy Batchelor is 40th in the averages. There is just as much depth now in World Speedway. Edited February 6, 2015 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted February 7, 2015 No it isn't strange for precisely the reason you have given. In 1981 nobody would have rated Gundersen and Nielsen as highly as they are rated now. They were promising yes, but hadn't yet won any World Titles. Yes of course those two would have found GP's easy. They found the World Finals easy as well. You talk about there being more depth in 1981.. Chris Holder was 24th in the Swedish League Averages last year. Hans Andersen 34th... In Poland Troy Batchelor is 40th in the averages. There is just as much depth now in World Speedway. You are right but have a look at our old BL that was the envy of the world at one time riders like Penhall as a example new they had to ride over here to be world class.The level then was very high, ok not as professional Mauger changed that but the league racing here was in a very healthy state talent wise.As a example Belle Vue one year had Mauger,Pusey,Sjosten,Collins, as a spine of the team now we are just an afterthought for most top riders.Going back to Nielsen/Gundersen most of us could see they were going to be great riders ,at that time Nielsen was even tipped up to go very well in 1980 in the Lee year.The GPS is an enjoyable event to watch, but some of those past greats would of won more titles in that format.Because for me to win a one off final was harder to do than win over a season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midland Red 2,383 Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) This thread has become similar to this one : http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=78379 When judging the best of any given year, one must consider the strength of the opposition Mention was made earlier of champions who only had one bike and had a day job, or won on the track spare - if they weren't "professional" how "professional" was the opposition Compared with the current situation, the champions are very professional, so too are the bulk of riders around the top leagues So, how do you compare eras? Not easily I can only assess those I've seen, and my 10 were : 1 Nielsen 2 Mauger 3 Fundin 4 Rickardsson 5 Penhall 6 Briggs 7 Gundersen 8 Craven 9 Lee 10 Knutsson and, in answer the the thread question, my view is that Hancock, whilst very very good, is not superior to these champions Edited February 7, 2015 by Midland Red Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sommelier 1,118 Posted February 7, 2015 Sidney, how do you think Olsen would have done in the GP format ? I dread to think how good Mauger would have been in the GP format! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 21,160 Posted February 7, 2015 This thread has become similar to this one : http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=78379 When judging the best of any given year, one must consider the strength of the opposition Mention was made earlier of champions who only had one bike and had a day job, or won on the track spare - if they weren't "professional" how "professional" was the opposition Compared with the current situation, the champions are very professional, so too are the bulk of riders around the top leagues So, how do you compare eras? Not easily I can only assess those I've seen, and my 10 were : 1 Nielsen 2 Mauger 3 Fundin 4 Rickardsson 5 Penhall 6 Briggs 7 Gundersen 8 Craven 9 Lee 10 Knutsson and, in answer the the thread question, my view is that Hancock, whilst very very good, is not superior to these champions Bit unfair to rate Lee + Knutson higher than Greg imo.No big fan of his and wouldn't rate him that highly in the all time greats of the sport.It is though I guess that exciting riders will get rated higher than so called boring riders of a similar standard.We pay to be entertained and for me riders like Hancock don't give me value for money Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
