PHILIPRISING 7,298 Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) HE'S my mate but I don't think I'm being biased when I suggest that Briggo would have won more World titles under a GP system. He qualified for 18 consecutive finals, a remarkable achievement, and often only lost out on the day because he couldn't resist tinkering with his machinery. He would certainly have had many more good meetings than bad over the course of a GP season. Edited December 19, 2015 by PHILIPRISING 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,362 Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) Grachan, I'm not sure if this is the footage you are talking about which shows a second angle of the Penhall and Carter incident from the rear which really helps to form a clearer opinion. I believe you can see Penhall making contact with Carters handlebar at 1.19, but it's what runs up to this which gives it context - the way it looks to me is that Carter is already on the way down at that point. The way I see it is this: 1.16 Bruce drifts out slightly wider (where his left leg kicks out) - arguably his right as there is space between them so he can still pick his line at this point 1.17 (towards the end of 1.17 and into the start of 1.18) Kenny, possibly due to the proximity of Bruce coming under him also shifts line and body position significantly, adopting, for me, the position of a rider who is already coming down, he's already starting to straighten up, and his front wheel is already beginning to tuck underneath. 1.19 after Kenny's alignment shift as described above, there then appears, as you mention, the contact between his handlebar and Bruce's rear mudguard / push bar, but by this time it appears, as noted above he's already going down as on a trajectory towards the fence. I'm doing it on my phone so can't state the exact freeze frame times, but if you run it through frame by frame it appears to me anyway, clearly that Kenny is already straightening up and on the way down before any contact. You really do need to do it frame by frame though. I guess it would be arguable he could have stayed on without the contact, but if anything it does look to me he's already falling onto the rear end of Bruce's bike. So if we were to discount contact as the actual cause of the fall (following the train of thought that he's already going down) then the only other question about Bruce being at fault would be whether his riding earlier in the bend is the initial cause (otherwise it has to be Kenny as cause of stoppage) And that's possibly another debate, and i'm out of time to freeze frame through that right now! However I'd say, apart from his line shift at 1.16 Bruce didn't really appear to do much else questionable to me, he's running Kenny wider for sure, but could it be classed as unfair? Having a quick look Kenny appears to be drifting / struggling to hold his line of his own accord a couple of times earlier in the bend, already heading out wider and wider. Bruce is fairly wide though, you can see from his tyre tracks after his line shift at 1.16 how wider he is than the usual line through that bend, but is that in itself unfair? As with that manoeuvre to push Kenny wider, does Kenny have chance to roll the throttle off and tuck back in behind? I personally struggle a bit to see that actual manoeuvre as the cause, it's like the whole incident is just like a perfect storm of circumstances! But in essence perhaps this is secondary anyway, as the main debate with this incident is whether Bruce caused him to fall through contact, and from what I've viewed and described above it would appear not. Anyway, open to further debate no doubt! Good post. I enjoyed reading that. The footage I was talking about is actually the same, original footage that ITV showed, rather than this one (By the way, it's actually me who put that link on youtube!) Looking at it, yes you make a good point about Carter leaning into Penhall So I guess you have Carter leaning in and Penhall's wheel flicking out at the same time! No wonder it's so difficult to decide who was at fault! The case I argue isn't that it was neccessarily Penhall's fault, but that there was contact between the two. How we miss Gary Newbon's pit interviews by the way! Edited December 19, 2015 by grachan 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Lee 128 Posted December 19, 2015 Thought I'd have a look here to read about Penhall, as, for various reasons, I never saw him ride. However, it seems to have digressed into who would/wouldn't have won world championships and why. Fascinating debate, so I'll chuck in my 5 penn'orth. People have mentioned Hans Nielsen's occasional desperation moves, and I remember the 1990 final, heat 9. He went under Kelvin Tatum in a distinctly iffy move, but Kelvin somehow hung on and didn't go down, but finished last. If he'd laid it down, odds-on he'd have got a re-run with Hans excluded, and who knows, he could have gone on to win...... This was the one where Per Jonsson beat Shawn Moran in a run-off, both on 13 points. What if that had gone the other way? Oh, and Todd Wiltshire was 3rd - remember him? I'd put him above Leigh Adams. Hans was always a love-him-or-hate-him character. I always loved him; that is, when he was at Oxford I loved to hate him, but when he came to Cov (what a coup that was for Martin Ochiltree) I just loved him! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phillipsr 2,057 Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) Thought I'd have a look here to read about Penhall, as, for various reasons, I never saw him ride. However, it seems to have digressed into who would/wouldn't have won world championships and why. Fascinating debate, so I'll chuck in my 5 penn'orth. People have mentioned Hans Nielsen's occasional desperation moves, and I remember the 1990 final, heat 9. He went under Kelvin Tatum in a distinctly iffy move, but Kelvin somehow hung on and didn't go down, but finished last. If he'd laid it down, odds-on he'd have got a re-run with Hans excluded, and who knows, he could have gone on to win...... This was the one where Per Jonsson beat Shawn Moran in a run-off, both on 13 points. What if that had gone the other way? Oh, and Todd Wiltshire was 3rd - remember him? I'd put him above Leigh Adams. Hans was always a love-him-or-hate-him character. I always loved him; that is, when he was at Oxford I loved to hate him, but when he came to Cov (what a coup that was for Martin Ochiltree) I just loved him! Hans never touched Kelvin though just moved him out always thought Kelvin bottled it a little Edited December 19, 2015 by phillipsr Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,997 Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) Averages stats on the brain totally irrelevant, these figures do not show what the level of rider they were up against do they?? It's always your argument sid when confronted with the stats,but just what Is your argument based on then if not the facts???? You've still got a hangover from last night mate.Go back to bed HE'S my mate but I don't think I'm being biased when I suggest that Briggo would have won more World titles under a GP system. He qualified for 18 consecutive finals, a remarkable achievement, and often only lost out on the day because he couldn't resist tinkering with his machinery. He would certainly have had many more good meetings than bad over the course of a GP season. Trouble is Phil and I do agree to some extent,is that the friend or fan of Ove will come on and say if there was a GP system back then,then Ove would have won more.Or Mauger would have won more or what about just look at how consistent Leigh Adams was he must surely have won a title or two,but he didn't Edited December 19, 2015 by iris123 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
guitar_art 247 Posted December 19, 2015 I have no idea if anyone has posted this previously. If that is indeed the case please accept my apologies. Its video number thirteen that you are looking at. http://176.32.230.17/brummiesfans.com/gallery.php?cid=30 And this is Penhall's view. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnATdsDV5L0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted December 19, 2015 Averages stats on the brain totally irrelevant, these figures do not show what the level of rider they were up against do they??The bl in 86 was a least as tough as the early 80s. Yes it was missing penhall carter Lee siglos sanders . But it had also shrunk to 11 teams, which meant a greater concentration of talent. When I get time I'll add in detail my thoughts on this debate. But in summary if you look at 80s alone I would say S moran siglos ermolenko, but there are valid arguments either way. Over whole careers though there is no doubt that ermolenko comes out top, I think BWitcher analysis shows that. Ermolenko certainly isn't in the top 10 of all time, probably not the top 20, but almost certainly in the top 30 and zero doubt whatsoever top 50. Look at his achievements, and he has to be regarded ahead of the likes of carter S moran siglos etc. It's whether he is above the likes of other one time champs like Lee Jan o and Jonsson which is more Debatable ( I would say no, maybe, yes, but on achievements alone he would be too of those). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grand Central 2,654 Posted December 19, 2015 HE'S my mate but I don't think I'm being biased when I suggest that Briggo would have won more World titles under a GP system. He qualified for 18 consecutive finals, a remarkable achievement, and often only lost out on the day because he couldn't resist tinkering with his machinery. He would certainly have had many more good meetings than bad over the course of a GP season. I think you are right about Briggs ... But one of the funny things about the debate on who could have won more titles under a GP system is that you can convince yourself that they ALL could have done ... Except, of course, they couldn't ! Briggs, Olsen, Mauger, Collins, Nielsen ... arguments could be made for all that they may have won more titles in a GP system. Others who never won it like Jessup, Carter, P Crump and others could have won under a GP where they failed in the one-off. But it can't be true for them all. Every 'extra' win would have to come at the expense of someone who didn't win. Makes it a fairly impossible task to really work out. But the unpredictability of the old World Final certainly allows so much more debate donkeys years later that the GP system just can't match. The winters would be quite boring for this sort of discussion if we only had the GPS to rely on for our reminiscing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gavan 5,050 Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) A eleven point average when REALLY his rubbishey 11 point average was in a piss poor era compared to IVAN.11.74???? Forget averages Ermolenko was not that good certainly not over a PERIOD was he better than Penhall, Autrey,Sigalos,S.Moran, no way when i first see him ride he was a rider totally out of control. You are talking absolute tosh and out of your backside. Penhall yes better than Sam but if you think Autrey Sigalos and Shawn Moran (all world class by the way) were better than Ermolenko than you are a bigger fool than you usually are History in a poor era up until about 96 onwards speedway was poor at the top echelon. lol you are a joke I guess you think that speedway in the 80's when 6 at best average riders made the final was a better field then? 1993 Final, Ermolenko, Nielsen, Havelock , Jonsson all world champions. field also had Gollob Hamill Hancock and Rickardssn who between them won 10 world titles. Add in 3 x british champion Andy Smith and riders like Henka, Louis and Adams the field was very strong. Yet you stupidly say it was a poor era lol Oh and in 1994 to more world chamopins to be in Loram and Crump made the final. You really have no idea do you Not trolling and i am happy with my opinion now you go along and DREAM in your own little World 1993 god what a poor level it was then piss poor. it wasnt the world final was full of world champions and world class riders. get your facts right before spewing crap Edited December 19, 2015 by Gavan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Lee 128 Posted December 19, 2015 Hans never touched Kelvin though just moved him out always thought Kelvin bottled it a little mmm, maybe. I thought they touched, but I thought at the time that Kelvin was a bit short on gamesmanship, rather than bottle. He had nothing to lose by laying down and hoping for a re-run, it's a common ploy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martinmauger 584 Posted December 19, 2015 Kelv wasn't too experienced in such things at that time. World Finals v GPs: different eras and mind sets; bit like the play offs v pre play off days. A rider knew, in days or yore, he 'only' needed to make it into the last 16, the World Final (achieving a result for a favourable draw helped also !), then it was really who went good and handled the pressure best on the night who was to be World Champ. As teams today know the 'only' need to make the last 4. Back to the '82 Final, would Carter not have taken Penhall a bit wide had the positions been reversed, think he probably would have (!).... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Humphrey Appleby 13,960 Posted December 19, 2015 People have mentioned Hans Nielsen's occasional desperation moves, and I remember the 1990 final, heat 9. He went under Kelvin Tatum in a distinctly iffy move, but Kelvin somehow hung on and didn't go down, but finished last. If he'd laid it down, odds-on he'd have got a re-run with Hans excluded, and who knows, he could have gone on to win...... I think to be a great rider you need to occasionally be a hard rider, and Nielsen was good enough to pull it off most of the time. I felt that Tatum always did have a bit of a tendency to crumple under pressure, and Nielsen did exactly what required at Bradford. However, Tatum did exactly the same thing to Nielsen in the Intercontinental Final the previous year, so it's difficult to have a lot of sympathy. You win some you lose some. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PHILIPRISING 7,298 Posted December 19, 2015 KELVIN wasn't the first, nor the last, to experience how ruthless Hans could be even to his friends while still racing within the rules. I can recall walking round a golf course one Saturday morning before a GP with Hans and Tony Rickardsson, who were good mates. Later that evening Hans gave Tony the full treatment and you could picture the look on Rickardsson's face even under his helmet. Once the tapes went up Hans had no friends and that was a trait characterised by many former World Champions as well. Briggs had it, Ronnie Moore did not. If Leigh Adams had possessed that ruthless streak he would more likely have won a World title but it didn't make him a lesser rider or person. Think Tommy Knudson was in that mold as well. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YerRopes 3,009 Posted December 19, 2015 As a youngster Scott Autrey was one of my favourite riders.. Used to dislike Steve Gresham immensely despite watching him ride every week for the Bulldogs, but then I've always been a Robin.. Dennis Sigalos was probably my latter day favourite although Kelly and Shawn Moran were the best to watch when they could be bothered (ie not distracted by life outside of the sport).. Penhall was a great rider brilliant in attracting publicity for the sport - I still wanted KC to win in LA..(oh dear).. Lance King, Boogaloo, Billy Hamill, John Cook etc although good riders were always outside the top tier of American riders for me.. I must admit it would be brilliant for the sport today if the Yanks were as strong as they used to be..such a shame.. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted December 19, 2015 As a youngster Scott Autrey was one of my favourite riders.. Used to dislike Steve Gresham immensely despite watching him ride every week for the Bulldogs, but then I've always been a Robin.. Dennis Sigalos was probably my latter day favourite although Kelly and Shawn Moran were the best to watch when they could be bothered (ie not distracted by life outside of the sport).. Penhall was a great rider brilliant in attracting publicity for the sport - I still wanted KC to win in LA..(oh dear).. Lance King, Boogaloo, Billy Hamill, John Cook etc although good riders were always outside the top tier of American riders for me.. I must admit it would be brilliant for the sport today if the Yanks were as strong as they used to be..such a shame.. I can't argue with that - mine too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
