The Greatest Riders

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

It shows what a trcky topic it is.Do you go with the longevity/amount of honours won or do we go with talent shown?If you give points for every title and position in the league averages then generally the rider who rode at the top longest whilst avoiding injury is going to amass more points than someone like Penhall or Farndon who for ne reason or another had a short period at the top....

This is where it is tricky Pedersen being a prime example he has three titles how many of us would rate him on par with Olsen.? I wouldn't rate him anywhere near but we should really because Pedersen won three titles in a tough era.Havelock,Lee,Loram, again another example all won a title but was Lee/Loram in reality in a different league to Havvy.? For me doing lists is near impossible most of it down to just personnal opinion and as you say Longevity plays a big part of it.

[waiheke1 4,295]

I'd say lee was in a different league to Loram and havvy. The latter two I would say are similar, though I would give Loram the edge.

Pedersen I think is commonly regarded as the worst three time world champ ever, but must still rank in the top 16 post war riders imo.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

I'd say lee was in a different league to Loram and havvy. The latter two I would say are similar, though I would give Loram the edge.

Pedersen I think is commonly regarded as the worst three time world champ ever, but must still rank in the top 16 post war riders imo.

Lee do we rate him more because of his natural ability and talent rather than what he actually achieved.? His top class career in reality was very brief 77/83 so Longevity was not a plus for him.But when i think about it the Lee i saw would have to be in a top 20 riders that i ever saw.In 83 for a couple of months he was awesome what a shame for us supporters that it all went pearshape for him.

[iris123 21,042]

Lee do we rate him more because of his natural ability and talent rather than what he actually achieved.? His top class career in reality was very brief 77/83 so Longevity was not a plus for him.But when i think about it the Lee i saw would have to be in a top 20 riders that i ever saw.In 83 for a couple of months he was awesome what a shame for us supporters that it all went pearshape for him.

Spot on Sid.Also look at Bjorn Knutson,who is a bit of a mystery man for me.Never really read much about him,but looking at BL65's list he was right up near the top for a few years.Then when you look at his stats,he only started(if i have this right)in 1957 and by 1961 was second in the world and gave the sport up in 1966.So only a 10 year career and what a record.....

 

Individual world title and 2 silvers,plus 4 WTC gold medals,2 silvers and a bronze!!!

Edited December 20, 2016 by iris123

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

Spot on Sid.Also look at Bjorn Knutson,who is a bit of a mystery man for me.Never really read much about him,but looking at BL65's list he was right up near the top for a few years.Then when you look at his stats,he only started(if i have this right)in 1957 and by 1961 was second in the world and gave the sport up in 1966.So only a 10 year career and what a record.....

 

Individual world title and 2 silvers,plus 4 WTC gold medals,2 silvers and a bronze!!!

My uncle who first took me to speedway often raved about him and that was coming from someone who was a Briggo supporter.Norbold, Bobbath, BL ( ect)people who's opinions i really respect have all said Knutsson COULD of won more titles a class act.

[Guest]

MY TOP 20 (1969/88)( No order)

Briggs

,Olsen,

Mauger,

Michanek,

Lee,

Collins,

Nielsen,

Gundersen ,

Penhall,

Ermolenko,

Simmons,

P.Crump,

Carter,

S.Moran,

T.Jansson,

Sanders,

Sigalos,

Autrey,

J.O.Pedersen,

R.Wilson.

If i had a guess i recon out of the 20 i named Sanders,Sigalos,R.Wilson,Carter,Autrey might not be in some peoples list.

 

 

1969-1988

1. Ivan Mauger

2. Hans Nielsen

3. Ole Olsen

4. Bruce Penhall

5. Eric Gundersen

6. PeterCollins

7. Mike Lee

8. Anders Michanek

9. Dave Jessup

10. Kenny Carter

11. Barry Briggs

12. Malcolm Simmons

13. Shaun Moran

14. Soren sjosten

15. Jan Oswald Pedersen

16. Phil Crump

17. Chris Morton

18 Dennis Sigalos

19. Tommy Knudsen

20. Bengt Jansson

 

 

:::: This is my list with delete lines for Bjorn Knutsson and Billy Hamill. Now only 18 suggestions by me.

 

The 1969-1988 era: my nominees - not in any graded order:

​Ivan Mauger

Egon Muller

Barry Briggs

Bengt Jansson

Ole Olsen

Billy Hamill

Peter Collins

Sam Ermolenko

Bjorn Knutsson

Kenny Carter

Hans Nielsen

Dave Jessup

Erik Gundersen

Simon Wigg

Bruce Penhall

Bobby Schwartz

Michael Lee

Billy Sanders

Jan O Pedersen

Bo Petersen

 

 

 

I feel more relaxed than earlier today over my list for 1969-98.

As I have removed Billy Hamill and Bjorn Knutsson. I would like to replace them to make up 20 riders with --

 

Anders Michanek,

​Shawn Moran.

 

::: These appear to be the only detailed nominations for the 1969-88 period? I wonder how the riders would equate if combined into one list as for the 1928-48 period. Any volunteers to do this?

[The White Knight 9,039]

This really is a cracking Thread. I am enjoying reading it immensely.

 

Great to see folk who really know their subject discussing things iin a civilised manner.

 

My respect to all of you for your knowledge which on this subject, if I am totally honest, is far superior to mine.

[chunky 6,118]

This really is a cracking Thread. I am enjoying reading it immensely.

 

Great to see folk who really know their subject discussing things iin a civilised manner.

 

My respect to all of you for your knowledge which on this subject, if I am totally honest, is far superior to mine.

Dont sell yourself short! Remember that "knowledge" (like this) is generally something people have wanted to learn because of their interest, and that interest leads to us forming opinions. Plus, a lot of the stuff we "know" is not actually "knowledge"; it is simply a case of knowing where to look for the answers!

 

Steve

[chunky 6,118]

So, here's my list from 1969-1988 (in no particular order)...

 

1 - Barry Briggs

2 - Ole Olsen
3 - Ivan Mauger
4 - Anders Michanek
5 - Erik Gundersen
6 - Hans Nielsen

7 - Peter Collins

8 - Kenny Carter

9 - Shawn Moran
10 - Bruce Penhall

11 - Michael Lee

 

All of these were named by gustix, Sidney, and waihekeaces1, so no arguments there... The one rider voted by all three that I omitted was Jan O. Pedersen; I simply felt that he still hadn't established himself at the VERY top by 1988.

 

12 - Malcolm Simmons

13 - Billy Sanders

14 - Dave Jessup

15 - Dennis Sigalos

16 - Phil Crump

 

These five were named by two of the three voters.

 

17 - Scott Autrey
18 - Chris Morton

 

Both received a single vote.

 

19 - John Louis
20 - Eric Boocock

 

My two additions. Louis was not only one of the dominant forces in British speedway, but had some international highlights also. The younger Boocock's domestic form was quite simply superb, and his figures stood up against those of Mauger, Briggo, or whoever.

 

Steve

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

So, here's my list from 1969-1988 (in no particular order)...

 

1 - Barry Briggs

2 - Ole Olsen

3 - Ivan Mauger

4 - Anders Michanek

5 - Erik Gundersen

6 - Hans Nielsen

7 - Peter Collins

8 - Kenny Carter

9 - Shawn Moran

10 - Bruce Penhall

11 - Michael Lee

 

All of these were named by gustix, Sidney, and waihekeaces1, so no arguments there... The one rider voted by all three that I omitted was Jan O. Pedersen; I simply felt that he still hadn't established himself at the VERY top by 1988.

 

12 - Malcolm Simmons

13 - Billy Sanders

14 - Dave Jessup

15 - Dennis Sigalos

16 - Phil Crump

 

These five were named by two of the three voters.

 

17 - Scott Autrey

18 - Chris Morton

 

Both received a single vote.

 

19 - John Louis

20 - Eric Boocock

 

My two additions. Louis was not only one of the dominant forces in British speedway, but had some international highlights also. The younger Boocock's domestic form was quite simply superb, and his figures stood up against those of Mauger, Briggo, or whoever.

 

Steve

Would be proud to have that as my list Steve , Boocock who i was a massive fan of does deserve to be in it .You are right his British career was superb and was rounded off with a brilliant British Final win against a peak field.

Dont sell yourself short! Remember that "knowledge" (like this) is generally something people have wanted to learn because of their interest, and that interest leads to us forming opinions. Plus, a lot of the stuff we "know" is not actually "knowledge"; it is simply a case of knowing where to look for the answers!

 

Steve

Spot on Steve INTEREST is the key word, as you said TWK 's opinion is as valid and has as much substance as anyone else's .Since coming on the forum i have learned more from people on here than anywhere else brilliant to hear other people's stories and opinions.😀 Edited December 21, 2016 by Sidney the robin

[waiheke1 4,295]

Re Jan o: by 88 he had a 2nd and a 3rd in the world final, a blrc title and three WTC titles. In a gp system I think it's fair to say he would have been 2nd or 3rd in 88. So while only st the tail end of the period, I think it's fair to say he was riding at the top top level.

 

Not convinced by Eric Boococks claim tbh, he is a rider that never really did it at the top top level.

 

But there are probably 50 riders you could make a case for, and his is arguably more worthy than some of the other nominees such as Bobby "never made a world final" Schwartz and Bo Petersen imo.

 

Interesting discussion for sure.

Briggs Jan o pedersen and s moran then seem to be the other riders common to all three lists.

Carter ermolenko sigalos sanders jessup Simmons p crump b jansson all appear on two lists.

That would give us 19 with one spot left to fill. And I'd be tempted to give that to Muller, who appeared only on Gustix list, but as a world champ include him ahead of the other "one vote" riders.

So that's 20, just need to sort them.

So we have now 10 riders on all 4 lists:

Mauger nielsen olsen gundersen penhall Collins Lee Michanek Briggs s moran

The following on three lists:

Jan o pedersen Carter sigalos sanders jessup simmons

On two lists:

P crump b jansson ermolenko autrey morton

21 riders to fit into 20 spots.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

Re Jan o: by 88 he had a 2nd and a 3rd in the world final, a blrc title and three WTC titles. In a gp system I think it's fair to say he would have been 2nd or 3rd in 88. So while only st the tail end of the period, I think it's fair to say he was riding at the top top level.

 

Not convinced by Eric Boococks claim tbh, he is a rider that never really did it at the top top level.

 

But there are probably 50 riders you could make a case for, and his is arguably more worthy than some of the other nominees such as Bobby "never made a world final" Schwartz and Bo Petersen imo.

 

Interesting discussion for sure.

So we have now 10 riders on all 4 lists:

Mauger nielsen olsen gundersen penhall Collins Lee Michanek Briggs s moran

The following on three lists:

Jan o pedersen Carter sigalos sanders jessup simmons

On two lists:

P crump b jansson ermolenko autrey morton

21 riders to fit into 20 spots.

Again that shows do you go by riders world honours, or there Longevity,Consistency and domestic form.? For me English riders Wilson, E.Boocock,Louis,Ashby,Jessup,Betts were all in the same pot level wise but Wilson (World team cup max only)Louis,Jessup achieved more at World level.Even so Boocock,Ashby,Betts could all be considered in this discussion. Edited December 21, 2016 by Sidney the robin

[chunky 6,118]

Re Jan o: by 88 he had a 2nd and a 3rd in the world final, a blrc title and three WTC titles. In a gp system I think it's fair to say he would have been 2nd or 3rd in 88. So while only st the tail end of the period, I think it's fair to say he was riding at the top top level.

 

Not convinced by Eric Boococks claim tbh, he is a rider that never really did it at the top top level.

 

But there are probably 50 riders you could make a case for, and his is arguably more worthy than some of the other nominees such as Bobby "never made a world final" Schwartz and Bo Petersen imo.

 

Interesting discussion for sure.

So we have now 10 riders on all 4 lists:

Mauger nielsen olsen gundersen penhall Collins Lee Michanek Briggs s moran

The following on three lists:

Jan o pedersen Carter sigalos sanders jessup simmons

On two lists:

P crump b jansson ermolenko autrey morton

21 riders to fit into 20 spots.

I tend to put less emphasis on team results than on individual/pairs, which is one reason I didn't factor the WTC medals into Pedersen's rating. Not taking anything away from Jan O., but when you are alongside Nielsen, Gundersen, and Knudsen, chances are you will win! Again, it is partly a longevity issue. Bot than anyone here would be likely to include him, but let's look at Zenon Plech... Like Jan O., he had a second and a third in World Finals (and eight appearances), a silver and three bronzes from World Pairs, and a silver and four bronzes in World Team Cup! Impressive by anyone's standards!

 

A BLRC title is impressive, but Les Collins had one of those, along with a World Final silver. Again, it depends HOW you want to make your case... Jerzy Szczakiel had a World Final gold, a World Pairs gold (and a maximum), and a WTC bronze!

 

Of course, if the list was 1969-1998, he would have been a definite on my list! Extend it into a simple post-war list, and he disappears again, as we make room for Hancock, Rickardsson, Gollob, Crump minor,and perhaps the other Pedersen!

 

I do get your point about Boocock not starring at international level, but he is one of a very select few to post a 10+ BL average for that period of time; he was a dominant force - with a British Championship under his belt. I also felt the same as you regarding Muller; I desperately wanted to include him.

 

Just a thought, how about a "BL era" list???

 

Steve

Edited December 21, 2016 by chunky

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

I tend to put less emphasis on team results than on individual/pairs, which is one reason I didn't factor the WTC medals into Pedersen's rating. Not taking anything away from Jan O., but when you are alongside Nielsen, Gundersen, and Knudsen, chances are you will win! Again, it is partly a longevity issue. Bot than anyone here would be likely to include him, but let's look at Zenon Plech... Like Jan O;, he had a second and a third in World Finals (and eight appearances), a silver and three bronzes from World Pairs, and a silver and four bronzes in World Team Cup! Impressive by anyone's standards!

 

A BLRC title is impressive, but Les Collins had one of those, along with a World final silver. Again, it depends HOW you want to make your case... Jerzy Szczakiel had a World Final gold, a World Pairs gold (and a maximum), and a WTC bronze!

 

Of course, if the list was 1969-1998, he would have been a definite on my list! Extend it into a simple post-war list, and he disappears again, as we make room for Hancock, Rickardsson, Gollob, Crump minor,and perhaps the other Pedersen!

 

I do get your point about Boocock not starring at international level, but he is one of a very select few to post a 10+ BL average for that period of time; he was a dominant force - with a British Championship under his belt. I also felt the same as you regarding Muller; I desperately wanted to include him.

 

Just a thought, how about a "BL era" list???

 

Steve

(1969/88 B.L. (20) Briggs,Mauger,Michanek,Penhall,Lee,Collins,Nielsen, Gundersen,Carter,Crump,Sanders,E..Boocock,Sigalos,T.Jansson,Autrey,Jessup ,Ashby,R.Wilson,Boulger,Simmons. Edited December 21, 2016 by Sidney the robin

[waiheke1 4,295]

Surely chris morton needs to make that list, ahead of say Boulger or Ashby?

Nice list though Sid.