BL65 658 Posted December 18, 2016 A superb bit of scholarship BL65. That must have taken some compiling and working out. Very good Post and WELL DONE. :approve: Thank you White Knight. Part compiled from memory, but thank goodness for record books, programmes, magazines, the Speedway Researcher website and various other online sources, all of which provide a wonderful reminder. Is an excellent piece of work.I do wonder why Charlie Monk,who had a super season in 1965 doesn't make the top 10.But the end result is pretty conclusive.Good to see Nordin in instead of Lammy as i suggested I decided to restrict the year lists to the top ten. Charlie was actually number 11 for 1965 in my longer list. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted December 18, 2016 (edited) The original question on this thread was about the greatest rider over a specified period, which is always a matter of opinion as opponents, machinery, tracks and riding styles change over time. Having considered who were the most dominant riders each year, my opinion on each season from 1949 to 1968 is shown. From this, by awarding 10 points for first position in each season down to 1 point for tenth position I have then compiled a list based on the totals over the period of time concerned. My selections have regard to season long achievement, not just for performance in the world championship, although this is taken into account. 1949 Vic Duggan, Graham Warren, Jack Parker, Tommy Price, Wilbur Lamoreaux, Aub Lawson, Norman Parker, Dent Oliver, Ron Clarke, Louis Lawson 1950 Graham Warren, Jack Parker, Tommy Price, Norman Parker, Cyril Roger, Aub Lawson, Louis Lawson, Vic Duggan, Freddie Williams, Wally Green 1951 Ronnie Moore, Aub Lawson, Jack Young, Alan Hunt, Freddie Williams, Eddie Rigg, Norman Parker, Jack Biggs, Split Waterman, Jack Parker 1952 Ronnie Moore, Jack Young, Alan Hunt, Split Waterman, Freddie Williams, Tommy Price, Bob Leverenz, Henry Long, Cyril Brine, Geoff Mardon 1953 Ronnie Moore, Jack Young, Olle Nygren, Split Waterman, Arthur Forrest, Alan Hunt, Freddie Williams, Geoff Mardon, Tommy Price, Aub Lawson 1954 Ronnie Moore, Brian Crutcher, Jack Young, Olle Nygren, Eddie Rigg, Arthur Forrest, Geoff Mardon, Barry Briggs, Split Waterman, Alan Hunt 1955 Ronnie Moore, Jack Young, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Brian Crutcher, Peter Craven, Olle Nygren, Arthur Wright, Arthur Forrest,Ron Johnston 1956 Ove Fundin, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Barry Briggs, Brian Crutcher, Per Olaf Soderman, Peter Moore, Alan Hunt, Arthur Forrest, Jack Biggs 1957 Peter Craven, Barry Briggs, Ove Fundin, Bob Roger, Ron Johnston, Ron How, Ken McKinlay, Aub Lawson, Brian Crutcher, Rune Sormander 1958 Barry Briggs, Ove Fundin, Peter Craven, Ken McKinlay, Brian Crutcher, Ronnie Moore, Jack Young Aub Lawson, Olle Nygren, Ron How 1959 Ronnie Moore, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Peter Craven, Ken McKinlay, Olle Nygren, Brian Crutcher, Ron How, Peter Moore, Geoff Mardon 1960 Ove Fundin, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Bjorn Knutson, Barry Briggs, Ken McKinlay, Arne Pander, Peter Moore, Stefan Kwoczala, Rune Sormander 1961 Ove Fundin, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Bjorn Knutson, Barry Briggs, Gote Nordin, Arne Pander, Florian Kapala, Rune Sormander, Ron How 1962 Peter Craven, Ronnie Moore, Bjorn Knutson, Barry Briggs, Ove Fundin, Gote Nordin, Ron How, Ken McKinlay, Igor Plechanov,Bob Andrews 1963 Ove Fundin, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Bjorn Knutson, Barry Briggs, Boris Samorodov, Gote Nordin, Ron How, Sverre Harrfeldt, Ken McKinlay 1964 Barry Briggs, Ove Fundin, Igor Plechanov, Bjorn Knutson, Boris Samorodov, Ken McKinlay, Ron How, Arne Pander, Nigel Boocock, Gote Nordin 1965 Bjorn Knutson, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Igor Plechanov, Nigel Boocock, Ken McKinlay, Ron How, Arne Pander, Bengt Jansson, Sverre Harrfeldt 1966 Barry Briggs, Bjorn Knutson, Ove Fundin, Gote Nordin, Sverre Harrfeldt, Igor Plechanov, Antoni Woryna, Nigel Boocock, Ivan Mauger, Arne Pander 1967 Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Gote Nordin, Bengt Jansson, Ivan Mauger, Igor Plechanov, Nigel Boocock, Anders Michanek, Ray Wilson, Antoni Woryna 1968 Ivan Mauger, Barry Briggs, Edward Jancarz, Torbjorn Harrysson, Anders Michanek, Ove Fundin, Nigel Boocock, Martin Ashby, Ray Wilson, Bengt Jansson Based on the above selections, the top 20 for the whole period is: 1. Ove Fundin 121 2. Barry Briggs 115 3. Ronnie Moore 110 4. Peter Craven 72 5. Bjorn Knutson 54 6. Jack Young 47 7. Ken McKinlay 36 8. Brian Crutcher 33 9. Gote Nordin 30 10. Igor Plechanov 27 11= Aub Lawson 26 11= Olle Nygren 26 13= Alan Hunt 25 13= Ron How 25 15. Jack Parker 23 16= Graham Warren 19 16= Nigel Boocock 19 18= Freddie Williams 18 18= Split Waterman 18 18= Ivan Mauger 18 Of course, this list could have been very different, but for the tragic loss of Alan Hunt and Peter Craven, serious injuries to Ronnie Moore, Graham Warren, Ron How, Arne Pander and Stefan Kwoczala, as well as the early retiirement of Brian Crutcher and seasons opted out of British speedway by Ronnie Moore and Ivan Mauger. The outcome would also be somewhat different according to the timescale selected. In my selections Ronnie Moore was well ahead from 1951 to 1963, whereas Ove Fundin's era of greater domination was 1955 to 1967. Great stuff BL really enjoyed that i love this section learn a bit and sometimes keep out of trouble.😜😆 Edited December 18, 2016 by Sidney the robin 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 21,047 Posted December 18, 2016 Thank you White Knight. Part compiled from memory, but thank goodness for record books, programmes, magazines, the Speedway Researcher website and various other online sources, all of which provide a wonderful reminder. I decided to restrict the year lists to the top ten. Charlie was actually number 11 for 1965 in my longer list. Guess it is very weighted towards the world final?I mean Charlie was on 10.28 from 40 meetings in the league and won all his quali meetings up to the British Final when he was controversially excluded and also won the Internationale at Wimbledon.How many meetings have you then used to judge someone like Plechanov,who never won a quali meeting in the run up to the world final and got beat by Monk in the WTC.Just asking rather than arguing mind Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,154 Posted December 18, 2016 The original question on this thread was about the greatest rider over a specified period, which is always a matter of opinion as opponents, machinery, tracks and riding styles change over time. Having considered who were the most dominant riders each year, my opinion on each season from 1949 to 1968 is shown. From this, by awarding 10 points for first position in each season down to 1 point for tenth position I have then compiled a list based on the totals over the period of time concerned. My selections have regard to season long achievement, not just for performance in the world championship, although this is taken into account. 1949 Vic Duggan, Graham Warren, Jack Parker, Tommy Price, Wilbur Lamoreaux, Aub Lawson, Norman Parker, Dent Oliver, Ron Clarke, Louis Lawson 1950 Graham Warren, Jack Parker, Tommy Price, Norman Parker, Cyril Roger, Aub Lawson, Louis Lawson, Vic Duggan, Freddie Williams, Wally Green 1951 Ronnie Moore, Aub Lawson, Jack Young, Alan Hunt, Freddie Williams, Eddie Rigg, Norman Parker, Jack Biggs, Split Waterman, Jack Parker 1952 Ronnie Moore, Jack Young, Alan Hunt, Split Waterman, Freddie Williams, Tommy Price, Bob Leverenz, Henry Long, Cyril Brine, Geoff Mardon 1953 Ronnie Moore, Jack Young, Olle Nygren, Split Waterman, Arthur Forrest, Alan Hunt, Freddie Williams, Geoff Mardon, Tommy Price, Aub Lawson Great piece of work BL. It's interesting to compare your Top 10s for the early years with the Stenner Rankings for those years. 1949: Jack Parker, Aub Lawson, Tommy Price, Vic Duggan, Wilbur Lamoreaux, Graham Warren, Jack Biggs, Norman Parker, Bill Gilbert, Dent Oliver 1950: Graham Warren, Jack Parker, Aub Lawson, Tommy Price, Ken Le Breton, Fred Williams, Cyril Roger, Norman Parker, Cyril Brine, Eric French 1951: Jack Young, Split Waterman, Aub Lawson, Ronnie Moore, Olle Nygren, Fred Williams, Jack Parker, Eddie Rigg, Alan Hunt, Jack Biggs 1952: Jack Young, Split Waterman, Ronnie Moore, Fred Williams, Aub Lawson, Bert Roger, Alan Hunt, Eddie Rigg, Dick Bradley, Cyril Brine 1953: Jack Young, Ronnie Moore, Split Waterman, Fred Williams, Olle Nygren, Aub Lawson, Geoff Mardon, Arthur Forrest, Alan Hunt, Basse Hveem Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulco 7,101 Posted December 18, 2016 I'm too young to have seen him race , but Tommy Miller was recently inducted into Glasgow's Hall of Fame . I don't see his name mentioned anywhere on this thread , was he not rated in the wider speedway world ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 21,047 Posted December 18, 2016 (edited) I'm too young to have seen him race , but Tommy Miller was recently inducted into Glasgow's Hall of Fame . I don't see his name mentioned anywhere on this thread , was he not rated in the wider speedway world ? As has been posted before on another thread Miller was highly rated,especially for a second division rider http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=80674&page=2 Talking of Miller brings back wonderful memories for me of that day in November when young Josie scored on his debut as the Celts steamrollered Dundee on their way to the Centenary year title Edited December 18, 2016 by iris123 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BL65 658 Posted December 18, 2016 Guess it is very weighted towards the world final?I mean Charlie was on 10.28 from 40 meetings in the league and won all his quali meetings up to the British Final when he was controversially excluded and also won the Internationale at Wimbledon.How many meetings have you then used to judge someone like Plechanov,who never won a quali meeting in the run up to the world final and got beat by Monk in the WTC.Just asking rather than arguing mind In considering the selections I took into account what I recall seeing at the time and in my view Igor just had the edge on Charlie. His second place run-off victory over Ove Fundin confirmed his stature, but he was also very impressive during the USSR tour of Britain in 1965, including smashing Goog Hoskin's Exeter track record which had been set in 1954. On the tour Plechanov rode in all 5 tests, as did Monk, with Plechanov scoring 62 points plus 3 bonus compared to Charlie's 50 points and 5 bonus. In the Scotland v USSR meeting Plechanov scored 14 and Charlie 13. In that series of meetings they met 10 times, with Igor ahead of Charlie on 7 occasions. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted December 18, 2016 (edited) I have just logged in carefully studied message 103 sent by BL65 which details his views on the rider ratings for the 1949-68 period. I only have one word to describe it - superb. Edited December 18, 2016 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted December 18, 2016 Thank you White Knight. Part compiled from memory, but thank goodness for record books, programmes, magazines, the Speedway Researcher website and various other online sources, all of which provide a wonderful reminder. I decided to restrict the year lists to the top ten. Charlie was actually number 11 for 1965 in my longer list. How does it look if you take points only for the riders say five best seasons? To peak performance rather than sustained time at the top? Allowing perhaps one "bonus point" for each season more than 5 i the top ten.Super work! I ask as I'd rank Mauger higher than 18th. Using that methodology 69-88, penhall would likely score say 29 points, which would likely leave him someway outside the top 5, whereas he is certainly in that top group imo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted December 18, 2016 ::::: Who is going to set things in motion in regard to - Eras to come - 1969-19881989- to present times Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BL65 658 Posted December 18, 2016 How does it look if you take points only for the riders say five best seasons? To peak performance rather than sustained time at the top? Allowing perhaps one "bonus point" for each season more than 5 i the top ten. Super work! I ask as I'd rank Mauger higher than 18th. Using that methodology 69-88, penhall would likely score say 29 points, which would likely leave him someway outside the top 5, whereas he is certainly in that top group imo. There would be only minor changes to the top of the order. Because I have totalled points over a 20 season period Ivan scores a low total. The period up to the end of the National/Provincial Leagues in 1964 saw him ranked well outside the top 10, as did his injury hit season in 1965. I feel that Ivan's real breakthrough year was 1967, before he finally hit the top in 1968. A similar exercise for the 20 year period from 1969 onwards would almost certainly see him at the top of the pile. 1. Ove Fundin 50+9 = 59 2. Barry Briggs 48+10 = 58 3. Ronnie Moore 50+7 = 57 4. Peter Craven 44+4 = 48 5. Jack Young 43+1 = 44 6. Bjorn Knutson 41+2 = 43 7. Brian Crutcher 31+1 = 32 8. Ken McKinlay 28+3 = 31 9. Gote Nordin 29+1 = 30 10. Igor Plechanov 27+0 = 27 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted December 19, 2016 1969-1988 1. Ivan Mauger 2. Hans Nielsen3. Ole Olsen4. Bruce Penhall5. Eric Gundersen6. PeterCollins 7. Mike Lee8. Anders Michanek9. Dave Jessup10. Kenny Carter11. Barry Briggs12. Malcolm Simmons13. Shaun Moran14. Soren sjosten 15. Jan Oswald Pedersen16. Phil Crump17. Chris Morton18 Dennis Sigalos19. Tommy Knudsen20. Bengt Jansson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted December 19, 2016 (edited) The 1969-1988 era: my nominees - not in any graded order: Ivan Mauger Egon Muller Barry Briggs Bengt Jansson Ole Olsen Billy Hamill Peter Collins Sam Ermolenko Bjorn Knutsson Kenny Carter Hans Nielsen Dave Jessup Erik Gundersen Simon Wigg Bruce Penhall Bobby Schwartz Michael Lee Billy Sanders Jan O Pedersen Bo Petersen ::: For me it's now retire to dark corner and watch the flak fly! Edited December 19, 2016 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted December 19, 2016 Billy Hamill ? On what basis? He hadn't appeared in the bl yet, nor won any major title? Bjorn knutsson in this era? Schwartz ahead of the Morans, Peter sen ahead of knudsen, Wigg ahead of Simmons are odd ones for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted December 19, 2016 (edited) The 1969-1988 era: my nominees - not in any graded order: ::: For me it's now retire to dark corner and watch the flak fly! Billy Hamill ? On what basis? He hadn't appeared in the bl yet, nor won any major title? Bjorn knutsson in this era? Schwartz ahead of the Morans, Peter sen ahead of knudsen, Wigg ahead of Simmons are odd ones for me. Billy Hamill included on the emergence of talent he was showing in the USA at the time. This is supposed to be a worldwide analysis NOT just based on the British League. However, I do concede that the inclusion of Bjorn Knutsson is an error - he retired at the end of the 1966 season. I make a delete line for his name. I am not going to add another rider so my list now shows 19 riders. In your haste to denigrate my Post you failed to note that I said == "The 1969-1988 era: my nominees - not in any graded order:" Edited December 19, 2016 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
