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Cliffeboy was referencing when Kennett guested as a replacement for Oliver Allen a few seasons later on.

Always 'mysterious' how the landowners (in this case Brandon Estates) have no security on the site when such fires 'mysteriously' break out.

First one up this coming Thursday, Ipswich Vs Swindon 98!

Although Wilkie undoubtedly had a lot of wisdom to offer Kelly, the evidence suggests he wouldn't have listened much to anyone. Ivan (at Hukk) and Briggo both tried but Kelly was very much his own man and a free spirit.

Yes, I find this speculation on who would have won under Grand Prix v. one-offs endlessly fascinating - especially as we can never know the answer. It has always been my opinion, for example, that in the era of the Big Five, taken over a season of Grand Prix, Ove Fundin would have won more titles than the five he actually did win. He was the best and most consistent rider around for something like eight years at least and would have definitely been in the running for a further four . Maybe Briggo might have stopped him once or twice, but I think we could add at least another two to Fundin's tally of wins and I don't think three would be out of the question. So possibly seven or eight titles.

I would certainly agree with that - might have Dave Morton in there instead of Davis, but to be fair injuries prevented him from achieving his true potential. Might also swap Lee and Louis over as well, but that's nit picking!

Fair enough. Gundersen was also an Elite rider (to put it mildly!), just think Neilsen was a little bit more consistent and wouldn't have any 'poor' meetings which might have ultimately cost him. We'll never know, both were superstars!

I think so too. But this is the thing. Does that mean it is harder or easier to win a one-off World Final? A one-off World Final was harder to win for Nielsen but, at the same time, probably easier to win for Gundersen, who was more of a 'rise to the occasion' rider. You can't say one was easier or harder than the other. At the end of the day/series there is still only one winner,

Sometimes you get deeply in trenches and can’t see the wood for the trees, Sid . Just let it go sometimes

Well, you started it! I suppose that's what happens when you make a sensible post on here...

I'm sure that I speak for everyone in hoping you are right.

Never knew that - I'm sure he would have been of immense personal benefit to Kelly. Wilkie was the ultimate captain for me. Just coming into his prime as well when the terrible crash happened...……….. so sad. Can't believe that he's 71 in a couple of weeks.

Always a great read, I lock myself away for a couple of ours when it comes! What a life that Kelly Moran had - frustrating, talented and lived his life to the full. I'm sure that he wouldn't have changed much.

I agree, it's impossible to compare different eras in pretty much all sports (the perennial who was better Pele or Messi, Sampras or Federer, Bradman or Richards etc etc). You actually CAN'T compare as they were the best they could be in their own era and that comes down to ability, mentality, coaching, support, fitness and motivation. If Bradman were around today, would he be any good?..... yes of course he would because he had the mentality and the other attributes to MAKE himself good.

Yes, I certainly agree about Knutson. Being a West Ham supporter, I had the great fortune of seeing Knutson and Harrfeldt week in and week out. I would definitely agree that Knutson would certainly have given Mauger a run for his money. He was class personified. They always say it was his nerves that got the better of him on the big occasion and that was why he didn't win more world titles. Not sure how true that is, but I expect that after winning once and proved himself he would have gone on to dominate the sport in the late 60s and maybe into the 70s. Harrfeldt, I'm not so sure about. Yes, he was a great rider, as his 2nd place in 1966 showed, and he may have gone on to win a world title, but I don't think he was quite in the Fundin, Briggs, Knutson, Mauger class.

Jeez. This kicked off. Again! We are all biased to some degree, the difficulty is being able to put that natural bias aside in order to be rational. I'd love to say that Chris Morton is the greatest rider ever but I cannot credibly back that up. Thing is, if your starting position for a discussion is personal preference and prejudice and not facts and evidence, you always going to struggle when challenged.

With any luck this Coronavirus will see the end of Brandon Estates

But that is the trouble with having the best riders.... they just don’t change every couple of years Take any sport like say tennis or skiing etc the top people remain on top for years. That is the nature of the beast, apart from when someone gets injured or retired early..,,

We know our Health service relies on many foreign nurses, especially Filipinos this is of interest to me as my wife is a Filipino. This nurse has made the ultimate sacrifice with her life to Covid 19 to try to save others, her husband who is also in the medical profession is also fighting against Covid 19 which means there daughter has had to go into care while they were both hospitalised, a Go Fund me page has been organised to help in a small way, it would be good if people could share this around.. Thank You https://www.gofundme.com/f/leilanis-fund-raising?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet

It's nice to be contributing a weekly retro interview for our friends at Speedway Star. This week's Q&A is with former Denmark, Halifax and Belle Vue star Mike Lohmann. We urge you all to subscribe to the Star at www.speedwaystar.net

Joe had two outstanding seasons at Newcastle in 1975 & & 76 and admitted in an interview some years ago that perhaps his move to Hull (another Ian Thomas track) wasn't perhaps the smartest thing. He suffered terrible injuries (1978?) at the Boulevard on a track that wasn't to everybody's liking (especially John Berry!) and perhaps if he had gone to a different track he may well have gone further in the upper league rather than returning to the Natinal League where he again dominated...but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I failed geography.....miserably

You're absolutely right, I just took it that we were talking about British riders, but if not Crumpie senior is definitely in there.

Different versions and extracts from the timeless originals published years ago . . . but thousands of Star readers obviously won't have read them previously,

Got to be Peter Collins. I am not going any further although I am tempted to put John Louis second. . I understand about excluding riders from the later years but if we didn’t I would have Simon Wigg challenging Peter. surprised Phil Crump has not been mentioned. He was sensational when he first hit these shores. another great thread. Thanks for starting it.

Having viewed Leigh Adams close up as a 'Cheetah' for two seasons I always felt that he lacked a certain amount of ruthlessness when it mattered although a superb rider it has to be said.

Knowing a little of the business acumen of both Ole & Ivan it was probably a rivalry cooked up by the pair of them to ensure they both had all expenses paid trips to all the prestige meetings, sly old dogs the pair of them.

I think one Rider who could be in with the best of the Riders you mention would be Joe Owen.

I understand what you're saying.. however, it doesn't always work that way. A GP is still a case of 'rising to the occasion' and we've seen since the advent of the GP series certain riders tend to do that. Rickardsson was never the most dominant in league speedway.. he was of course very good, but not to the levels of a Nielsen in his pomp. But when a GP rolled round, he stepped up a gear. Yet someone like Leigh Adams who you would have thought a GP system would suit due to his ultra consistency.. never won a GP series. I strongly suspect someone like Gundersen would still have won titles under the GP system. Strong argument that Ermolenko would have been favorite in 91/92/93 or certainly very close to.

Would certainly agree with that. I also think Michael Lee (and most of the Americans) would have struggled in the GPs because consistency over a few months was a problem for them. Neilsen in the 80s / 90s and Mauger in the 60s / 70s would have won even more titles because of their ability to perform every time.

We're joined at the hip Iris! Sid's come out with some crackers in his time...

...and of course there were the occasions at Wembley in 1973 when he out-gated that master from the tapes Anders Michanek one, of which, resulted in an exclusion for Michanek which was debatable in my view.

PC could certainly gate when it came down to it - the World Final in 1977 when he rode with a broken leg and couldn't get on and off his bike, and also many times at Coventry in the British Final (where common perception was that it wouldn't suit PC as it was primarily a gaters paradise)

Jeff Davies' comments today. Jeff Davies@jeffdavies170 After yesterday’s fire, thank you to all those who offered messages of support. To those who were negative about the prospects of a return to Brandon - you’re wrong. We HAVE made progress. We WILL continue fighting it. We remain OPTIMISTIC.

Expert ringing related to the Flatman's by any chance

Serious questions need asking of the site security or lack of it. How can a building be set alight in broad daylight during the current lockdown. Anyone in and around the site should stick out like a sore thumb.

They certainly do: and it's not even a car park, just a grass field!

Those two are precisely the reason, IMO , why the One Day Final had to evolve into the GP series in a changing world. If I you look at all the winners prior to Szczakiel , luck obviously played an small part in their wins but you could say that if they were not the absolute best in the world at that time they were pretty close to it. I don’t think you could genuinely say that about either Muller or Szczakiel, and I very much doubt whether either of them would have won if not on their home territory. From ‘73 onwards some riders were getting onto the podium who were, good riders on the day but not really worthy of top three in the world by any objective test. The GP system was fairer by the time it was introduced , but I can’t help feeling even that has now run its course.

There is plenty of that in Poland too of course. I think Belle Vue is on a par with anywhere in the world and a meeting with plenty of top riders like a GP would bring the very best out of it. Agree about P’boro and Somerset, they can be excellent too and no coincidence that these three tracks have wide sweeping bends and reasonably short straights.

There are lots of riders who could have won more world titles if luck had been on their side, but that's part of the game old chap. You can't just decide someone really won three world titles because they might have been a bit unlucky twice. I also cannot agree that Craven was approaching his peak when he died. He had been at his peak for a while. Yes, he may have won more titles, but there is no real reason to assume he would have. Fundin, Briggs and Knutson were also at their peak and then along came Mauger. My personal opinion is that PC the first wouldn't have won any more titles.

Few minutes ago i just thought I'd have a quick look at the telegraph site to catch up on news and there was the video and headlines. So sad to see so much of my childhood and youth rotting away. Even worse is that developers are perfectly happy to destroy a heritage site for what they hope will be big gains. But the way the economy is heading it may be many more years before anything comes to fruition at Brandon .

When have I EVER not given those riders credit? I just prefer to judge individuals on what actually happened, and not what MIGHT have happened. I was a big fan of Collins, and he COULD have have had FOUR world titles in a row. Due to a series of unfortunate events, he didn't. I wasn't a fan of Lee, due to his dubious record. Again, he was perhaps the most talented rider of all time. However, due to his mental frailties, he never got close to fulfilling his potential. So, it doesn't matter what he COULD have achieved, he DIDN'T. Craven, I never saw, so it is difficult for me to say. He was clearly a brilliant rider, but tragedy prevented him from adding more world titles. Had he continued, he may well have won more, but we just don't know. Woffinden? Maybe not as naturally talented as Lee, and not as unfortunate as the two PC's, but through hard work and determination, and not a little skill, he has gone on to produce far and away the best World Championship record of ANY British rider. It is that record that makes him - in my view - the best British rider of all time. And he is not finished yet. In view of my comments above - and what I have posted previously - I fail to see how you can keep accusing me of not giving credit to other riders.

Probably behind closed doors. My bank balance is going to be a lot healthier with no live sport to pay for. Apart from bills, I'm spending nothing on recreational activities.

You are right Sid and Falcace, I think its disgusting how people on this most interesting thread are focusing on Cradley's pork sarnies I for one am searching out food websites for posh recipes and restaurants and also Jamie Olivers site (who wants to eat those friggin' veggies as per his School Dinners show)Thus I will never mention the CH pork sarnies on this thread ever again!!. They weren't half good though!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We will be lucky if any GP Speedway in 2020, sadly never mind speedway here in UK leagues The Germans way ahead of UK in handling crisis and you wonder if some Govt Ministers have any ideas on how to curb it ?

Enjoyed reading the Marek Cieslak article especially.

No Doyle cost us big time, and no Allen cost us a couple of years later. Massive blow losing an in form No 1 in the final. Cook, Hall and Kennet were all poor.

Was thinking along the lines of,,, IF we can get some speedway in, but maybe only using British based riders. Say 1 or 2 leagues, split geographically and share the riders out that can, or want to take part. It could be averaged based but, forget about their averages changing during what's left of the season. Then revert back to 2019 averages for 2021??? Just a daft idea, but maybe we could put up with it, if it keeps riders and fans getting their fixes.

apologies ... we put it on the Brummies Forum , facebook, twitter but forgot this forum . We are planning to make it a regular Weds night feature at 7.30 .