norbold

That's the sort of thing my five year old grandson says to me when I get the rules of one of his games wrong. "I won't play with you any more, granddad...."

Actually, Jack, thinking about it, you probably won't like my book at all as I did a lot of my research in contemporary newspapers and magazines (local and trade), programmes, scrapbooks etc. I hardly used any second hand references from other books or web sites, so it's probably very inaccurate. No doubt when it's out you'll correct me with some links to a few modern web sites.

This looks like just the book for you, Jack: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crystal-Palace-Speedway-History-Glaziers/dp/178155062X/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1335280359&sr=1-4

I've refrained from looking at this thread for some time - in fact I've refrained from looking at the BSF for some time as it has descended into the pits (no pun intended). Olddon says "No matter how much Ross Garrigan, Norman Jacobs, Cyclone and others in the clan attempt on the BSF to decry the evidence provided in support of Johnnie Hoskins and the start of speedway at Maitland in December 1923, support for that theory is always provided in a convincing way." What convincing way is that? The proponents of the "Hoskins Did It" theory have still not yet quoted one contemporary source to back up their views. Ross, Cyclone, Kevin and I have asked repeatedly for them to do this and all we get is some link to a modern web site or quote from a written modern source. I suggest to BFD, olddon and kennylane that they actually go to Australia and look through the newspapers in the archives, or failing that go to Colindale and look through contemporary sources in the Newspaper Library. That's what historical research is all about, going back to the source. Ross has provided incontrovertible evidence on here that the meeting at Maitland in December 1923 was not the first of its kind, nor was it even thought to be at the time. That's the reality of this whole discussion. OK, that was my last contribution to not only this debate but this forum as I'm finished with the BSF for good now because I know the only response from the Big Fat Tractor Driver will be to hurl personal abuse at me without trying to show any evidence of his views while olddon and kennylane will give more links to modern web sites. I have operated all my life under strict research conditions where arguments are supported by real facts and sources. There are disagreements over interpretation of course but never once have I found it descend to the level of personal abuse so beloved of Dave Puxley nor the idea that a link to a web site - or even worse, a plaque, can overturn years of real research. I always thought there were supposed to be rules on this Forum about attacking the post and not the poster. Obviously I was wrong if BFD is still here. I find it very sad to have to say I've finished with the BSF as I was one of the first members on the original site over 10 years ago. But it's just become a joke now. The idea of real historical research is now frowned on and those who practice it subject to personal abuse. It was nice knowing you, Phil, but it's goodbye now.

All been mentioned already, Bob.

Incidentally, while I'm considering a response to your earlier detailed forensic dissection of my post I wonder if you could define "amateur historian". As you know I worked at The British Museum for 37 years and have had 23 history books published. I'd be interested in your definition of "amateur" in this context and whether you consider yourself to be a professional historian. Your score somehow seems to not count my post. So not biased at all then..... Peter Oakes doesn't seem to be as sure as some of you on here that Maitland was the first meeting. In fact the meeting was on grass and as we know there had been other dirt track meetings before. Hoskins did not travel to Newcastle from Maitland. He went to Sydney first and then on to Newcastle, where he took up the position as secretary for an already well-established speedway. The reference to a World Championship is interesting as I have never come across that before. Perhaps you can expand on that kennylane. Do you have the contemporary references to it as they would be very interesting to see?

An excellent thought provoking and well thought-out response to my reasons for saying why I do not believe Johnnie Hoskins invented speedway. I shall look into all the reasons you raise for disagreeing with my post and get back to you when I have had time to study your detailed post further.

The major argument against speedway originating on 15 December 1923 at Maitland is the Monday December 17, 1923 Maitland Daily Mercury's report on the Saturday December 15 carnival, which says: - "For the first time motor cycle racing was introduced into the programme and the innovation proved most successful. In an exhibition ride at the last sports several riders gave the track a good test and they then expressed themselves satisfied with it. They also stated that it was better than several other tracks that have been used for this kind of sport on a number of occasions..." Note the last sentence particularly. Maitland’s own paper did not see the meeting on 15 December as anything new. The riders themselves were comparing Maitland to “several other tracks” Even without going in to the developments in the USA stretching back to before the First World War and just taking Australia, the fact is that there are many reports of meetings similar to that put on by Hoskins prior to 1923 in places such as Townsville (as early as 1916), Rockhampton and Newcastle. Eleven months prior to the Maitland December 1923 carnival, which, incidentally, was held on a grass track, motor cycles had raced on a cinder circuit under lights at Adelaide’s Thebarton Oval. It is true that what Maitland gave the sport of speedway was continuity by providing speedway on a regular basis as between 15 December 1923 and 26 April 1924 there were no fewer than 15 carnival meetings featuring motor cycle racing, with promoters Campbell and DuFrocq staging six of them and including a rider by the name of Charlie Datson who was to become one of the leading pioneers of the new sport of speedway. But the meeting on 17 December was nothing new. It was not the ORIGIN of speedway.

Good list, Chunky. I have reservations about the placing of some of the riders but as we keep saying it's all a matter of opinion and I wouldn't disagree too violently with what you say. I think the only obvious name you have missed out is Eric Langton, who would certainly be at least a Second Level in my opinion. I would also have Ginger Lees in at probably third level.

Preview of the book cover: http://news.webshots.com/photo/2374306740054092940ZFDXhB

I know what you mean about Ove Fundin in one sense, but do you go to the Norwich WSRA dinner? I go every year and there is no doubt who the Norwich hero amongst the old-timers is! Chris Louis at Ipswich is a great call. I believe that apart from one year at Hackney, he never rode for another club.

Yes, I think that is a really good point.

How many people would put Vivian Woodward in their top 20 footballers of all time?

I'm not suggesting they won't be remembered, but as people fade out who actually saw them, I'm sure they will fall out of people's top tens just as, in general, apart from a few diehards like myself, the three greats from the early days I've mentioned above have done. How many people on this forum would include any of those three in their top 10 list of all time great speedway riders? Even taking iris's point, how many people would put John L Sullivan in their top 10 boxers of all time or even Jack Johnson apart from the diehards who really know the history of the sport?

Tom Farndon? Vic Huxley? Frank Arthur?

Of course it is all a matter of opinion and there is no definitive answer to the question. Everyone will have their own views and, like you, I cannot argue with you if you think that Peter Craven etc. are the top three. The only thing that generally concerns me with this type of question is that there is always a skewing to the more recent (in this case) riders, though it could be best footballer ever, best album ever, best band ever. Which is only natural because people know what they know and older "greats" fade as the people who remember them fade. In thirty or forty years time I wonder if Peter Craven will make anyone's top three.....

It has to be comparative though doesn't it? Who knows what Tom Farndon would have done on a modern bike with modern tracks? How would Peter Collins have fared on a Douglas on a deep track? Bikes and training are improving all the time. By saying that Mike Lee and Peter Collins are better say than Chris Harris or Scott Nicholls you are still comparing different times and having to go by results. I think the only way you can do it is to make a comparison through time and the achievements of the riders at the time they were riding under the conditions they rode in.

Tom Farndon was British Yes, I quoted Keith Farman's research some time ago. Keith was a devoted fan of Ove Fundin and tried to record every race he ever rode in. He once told me that the rider who beat him most in the period 1954 to 1963 was Peter Craven.

Not sure about best three EVER.....

He also scored 21 points in the second Test at Rybnik on 15 October. The only reference in the report in the 1961 Speedway Star Digest to his seven rides says, "In the first match at Wroclaw, Poland raced to a 68-39 victory. Peter Craven, given seven races, scored 21 of England's points. Craven repeated this feat in the second Test at Rybnik....." Poland won this match too 56-51. The strange thing is that England won the last Test (56-52) when Craven "only" scored 17 (from 6 rides).

Incidentally, during the period 1955 - 1963, Arthur Forrest was one of only three riders to break the dominance of the Big Five and obtain a World Championship podium spot other than them. This was in 1956 when he beat Peter Craven in a run-off for third place. The other two riders to break the Big Five dominance were Aub Lawson in 1958 and Gote Nordin in 1961 (both third places as well).

As did Ken le Breton, known as the White Ghost.

Beaten to it! He was known as the Black Prince because he always had immaculate black shiny leathers.

Phil Clarke, Billy Bales, Ove Fundin all at Norwich.

Bob Andrews, Cyril Maidment, Eric Williams, Ron Mountford, Arthur Forrest......