norbold

It depends what you mean by speedway of course. But, whatever it is, the meeting at West Maitland was no different to those other Carnival meetings held before it in Australia. West Maitland 1923 was definitely not the first SPEEDWAY meeting. Motor bike racing was held as part of an overall Carnival programme as it had been many times before. It was also held on grass, whereas Thebarton for one had actually been held on cinders. If the definition of speedway is riders not using brakes and sliding round corners then the Americans were at it back in c. 1912. This didn't happen at West Maitland anyway. There was nothing special about the West Maitland meeting that hadn't been done before apart from Johnnie Hoskins' showmanship and his later claims in his own inimitable way that it was the first. What was important in the development of speedway about West Maitland was that regular Carnival meetings featuring motor bike racing were held there in 1923/24, but these were promoted by Billy Dart and Campbell and Du Frocq not Johnnie Hoskins, whose only involvement seems to have been the December 1923 meeting.

Sad news indeed. Ron was probably the most underrated rider in the history of the sport!!! I think this was for two reasons, the first that he rode in a team of greats like Ronnie Moore and Barry Briggs and the second that he wasn't the most spectacular rider around, being more classy than spectacular. He qualified for 8 world finals; not many riders can equal, let alone better, that consistency. His best finish was fifth. He was, of course, a regular in the England Test team. To us, of course, at New Cross, he was the enemy, but, sadly for us though happily for the Dons, he used to pile up the points at the Frying Pan and was responsible for the Dons beating us more often than not on our own track. R.I.P., Ron

The four tracks I have mentioned are all in Australia and all held meetings similar to the one held at West Maitland by Johnnie Hoskins. Indeed, unlike the meeting at West Maitland which was held on grass, the meeting at Thebarton was even held on cinders. The four American riders I mentioned all raced on dirt tracks and all broadsided in speedway fashion before the First World War and into the early 20s, again all before West Maitland.

And here's a quote I made earlier: Anyway, enough of the name calling. I would be interested in hearing, Dave and Olddon and White Knight come to that, your views on the meetings held at Townsville, Thebarton, Rockhampton and Newcastle prior to December 1923 and also your views on riders like Don Johns, Albert "Shrimp" Burns, Eddie Brinck and Maldwyn Jones. Let's keep it all factual. Let's try and make this a serious discussion as the subject really deserves that.

I know it was Ian Hoskins who made the remark, thank you, Dave. But nice of you to reiterate it. The point I was actually making was that there is no date when football or cricket was said to be founded. In fact, it seems to me that Ian is rather shooting himself in the foot using that argument because like football and cricket, speedway evolved and there is no starting date. So are you saying that Olddon does not think Hoskins invented speedway? I think you'll find that's exactly what he's been saying. What difference does that make? I think your mind has become too fuddled trying to defend the indefensible, Dave. If you re-read Olddon's post it was he who was making the point that apparently you had to be there to know whether something happened or not. It was he who was denying the benefit of research. I was trying to point out the absurdity of that view. Of course, I'm not too lazy to do the research. I have done lots of research just as Nigel and Ross have. Anyone who has actually researched the beginnings of speedway will tell you it was NOT 'invented' by Johnnie Hoskins. It's you and people like you who are too lazy to do the research who just accept the old myth without question.

How do we know Napoleon didn't win at Waterloo? Were any of us there? How do we know King Harold didn't with the battle of Hastings? Were any of us there? How do we know the French didn't win the Battle of Agincourt? Were any of us there? Well done, Jack, you have added a whole new dimension to historical research.

The point is, olddon, there is no proof that Hoskins "invented" speedway other than him saying he did. But there is plenty of proof he didn't. Tell me what the absolute proof is that Hoskins invented speedway. Indeed it is people who insist against all the evidence that Hoskins invented speedway who are the true flat-earthers. And by the way, why is it that those who defend Hoskins just resort to ad hominem attacks on those with whom they disagree. Neither you, nor Ian Hoskins nor Philip Dalling can provide proof of your assertion. All you do is make personal attacks on people who do not agree with you. As it happens I have the highest regard for Johnnie Hoskins. He was the promoter at New Cross when I started going to speedway. As you can see I still regard New Cross as MY team in spite of following West Ham and Ipswich in later years. There is no doubt that Hoskins was the showman supreme of speedway and did much to promote speedway and make it popular throughout Australia, Britain and indeed the world. We do owe him an enormous debt for popularising our sport and making it what it is...but, that doesn't mean he "invented" the sport. Why people like you can't accept this fact I am not quite sure. For one thing it does a great disservice to those who came before Hoskins who really began speedway and gave Hoskins something to popularise. Why should they be rubbed out of history when, really, we should be honouring their names AS WELL as Hoskins?

Great answer, Dave. Those two dates are so instantly recognisable that you don't know what they are.

And what are those well-known dates, pray?

This whole argument about Johnnie Hoskins reminds me of the argument between Creationists and (for want of a better word) Evolutionists. No matter how many times it is proved that Johnnie Hoskins did not invent speedway, there are those who just have blind faith and refused to be moved by evidence. Well, good luck to them, but some of us prefer to do the research and find out what really happened and the truth about how speedway began. It's far more interesting than saying "Hoskinsdidit".

1929 was run as a series of home and away match races in two sections - Britain and Overseas. Overseas Results 1st Round Sprouts Elder bt Billy Galloway Billy Lamont bt Art Pechar Vic Huxley bt Ron Johnson Frank Arthur bt Max Grosskreutz Stan Catlett v Alf Chick (not raced) Semi-finals Vic Huxley bt Sprouts Elder Frank Arthur bt Billy Lamont Final Frank Arthur bt Vic Huxley British Results 1st Round Buster Frogley bt Jim Kempster Ivor Creek bt Tommy Croombs Jack Parker bt Jimmy Hayes Colin Watson bt Eric Spencer Roger Frogley bt Gus Kuhn 2nd Round Roger Frogley bt Ivor Creek Colin Watson bt Buster Frogley Jack Parker (bye) Semi-final Jack Parker bt Colin Watson Final Roger Frogley bt Jack Parker

Hmmm...the ticket actually says, "Admit One Child Free...Every Saturday..." So I'm not sure how they can get out of that.

Clapton were called the Saints in 1933 because midway during the 1932 the Southampton team (who were known as the Saints) moved en bloc to Lea Bridge. Crystal Palace were certainly known as the Glaziers in 1933 and Wembley were known as the Lions. Harringay missed the 1932 and 1933 seasons but returned in 1934 as the Tigers, having been previously known as the Canaries. I don't know when West Ham and Wimbledon obtained their nicknames - it's an interesting point.

My top 10 British riders would be: 1. Tom Farndon 2. Peter Craven 3. Peter Collins 4. Tommy Price 5. Michael Lee 6. Freddie Williams 7. Split Waterman 8. Eric Langton 9. Brian Crutcher 10. Nigel Boocock

It was originally due to take place in August but was rained off.

It was held on 27 October 1985 at Rye House. Don't know who wore no. 1 though.

None of the "Star" riders rode for any teams in 1929 (at least not until almost the very end of the season). I thought Robbie was asking who the riders he mentioned represented in the 1929 Star Riders' Championship.

Tommy Croombs - Lea Bridge Buster Frogley - Wembley Roger Frogley - Crystal Palace Jimmy Hayes - Southampton Jack Parker - Coventry

Of course, they used to have nos 9-16 in the previous year's Grand Prix racing against the top qualifiers in the Grand Prix Challenge for the final places in the Grand Prix line up, but they had to stop that because Andy Smith kept qualifying through this method!

Not that it has anything to do with speedway, but Clapton Stadium was also home to Clapton Orient F.C. before they moved off to Leyton and became Leyton Orient. I lived next door to Clapton Stadium for the first 18 years of my life - and when I say next door, I mean next door! We were THE house next door. Shame there was no speedway there as I think I would have seen my first meeting well before 1960 if there had been....

It certainly does. Thanks for the info, speedyguy. Just to clarify one thing: Rye House closed on 10 October 1993 and then reopened on 29 May 2000 (after running a year as you say mostly at Mildenhall in 1999). Also, although the track was open as a training track in 1967/68, no public meetings were held. They were also one of the few tracks to run during the War, with meetings being held every War year except 1944, with racing resuming on 5 August 1945. (I believe there's a good book out which will give more information on the subject! See here

New Cross started in 1934 for ANY sort of racing.

Hackney 12 July. Both Collins and Jessup scored 15 each. Collins: 2 3 2 3 2 3 Jessup: 3 2 3 2 3 2

Not absolutely certain but I would guess 1936 - 1965 all JAPs.

Once again, another excellent issue of Classic Speedway, especially the interviews with Malcolm Simmons and Tony Robinson and the article on Jack Young. However, I was very disappointed with Philip Dalling's article, entitled "Eternal divide of Roundheads and Cavaliers." He likens those who "debunk" the Hoskins myth as Roundheads because they are too dour and apparently don't recognise what the greatest Cavalier of them all, Johnnie Hoskins, did for the sport. He says, "I find the attempts to debunk the role Johnnie played in the sport's development, which emerge quite regularly from what I regard as the roundhead fraternity somewhat unpleasant." As one of those who have attempted to get past the myth that Johnnie Hoskins both invented speedway and then brought it to Great Britain, I take great exception to this characterisation. I personally have the greatest respect for Johnnie Hoskins and all he did for speedway. After all, my first visit to speedway and the team I still regard as MY team was New Cross (see my avatar). And who was the promoter there? Why, none other than Roarin' Johnnie Hoskins. He was undoubtedly one of the great showmen of the sport and did much to keep the sport in the forefront of the public eye through his personality and efforts to find ways of publicising the sport. It's a shame there aren't too many around like him today. But, as a historian, I try to get at the truth of what happened in our sport and its origin and the oft repeated fact, begun by Hoskins himself, that speedway started in West Maitland in 1923 at a meeting organised by himself, is just not true. Not only do I find it interesting to delve into the origins of the sport for its own sake but I think we also owe it to those other pioneers who played such a big part in the origins of speedway whose memory has been completely obliterated by the Hoskins' myth.