norbold

You missed out a link to Wikipedia, Jack. Why's that?

And what about poor old Dave? Can he not contribute under his own name any more?

Because Crouch...er...must be a very rude word....

So are you admitting you were wrong when you said, "So it could indeed be him in speedway action".? Well done, Jack, that's very noble of you.

er...er...um... Perhaps we should ask Freddie Williams or Split Waterman. They are both still around.

Yes, I agree, Steve. Actually I though after posting my comment that I should have added that Split Waterman still had a chance of becoming World Champion so why should he do Biggs any favours. Also, Lawson was having a bad night (for him) following an injury the week before and on the form Biggs was on that night he must have been confident of beating at least him and, given that, why would Lawson think that he could get Biggs to bribe him because, as you say, Biggs only needed a third place to become world champion.

Sorry, only just seen this. I realise things have moved on from here but if you're referring to the Jack Biggs final I have to say I find the whole story a bit dubious. Jack Biggs appeared unbeatable on the night and won his first four races fairly comfortably. The story goes that he was approached by the other three riders in his last race who told him that if he bunged them some cash they'd stay out of his way. As he had won his first four races easily I'm not sure why they would have done this as he would have expected to beat them anyway. The story continues that he refused so they all beat him. Now why had no-one thought of beating him in his other four races??? In my opinion, after reading reports and speaking to people who were there as spectators and in the pits, I think that Biggs just became a bag of nerves at thought of winning the World Championship and fluffed his start. He was on the outside anyway and just couldn't make up the ground. I don't think bribery had anything to do with it. Just my opinion.

Yes, Johnnie Hoskins himself claimed to have invented the sport. Remember what I said above that he was a great publicist and showman. As well as publicising speedway he wasn't averse to publicising himself! I'm not really sure that anyone was really that interested or really looked into it in the early days and just took his claim, which he made many years later, at face value. The origins had been forgotten by then. As I said above, A J Hunting also claimed to have invented the sport in the interview he gave to John Addison, Sports Editor of The People, and published in the 1948 People Speedway Guide. He was wrong as well! But by then A J Hunting was more or less a forgotten name anyway, whereas Hoskins was still going strong. Hoskins's account of what happened at Maitland is in his autobiography, "Speedway Walkabout", published in 1977. As well as the actual claim to have "invented" speedway there are several things about his account of how it all happened and that week at Maitland that just don't add up. But if you take the book as a whole it is, what I believe used to be termed, a rollicking good yarn and inventing speedway is just one of the many outlandish claims and stories in his book.

Yes, couldn't imagine a 41 year old rider being able to compete at that level these days.... Oh, hang on a minute.....

Right then, to return to the main issue. I think I would like to sum up my own view on the Johnnie Hoskins saga like this... In my opinion there is no doubt that Johnnie Hoskins is a towering figure in the history of speedway. No-one doubts that he did much to advance speedway in the early pioneering days of the sport in Australia and he certainly did a lot to publicise the sport in this country from his arrival in 1928 right up until his death in 1987. You only have to read back copies of the speedway press to see what an enormous influence he had and the amount of publicity he generated. He helped bring speedway either to new tracks or to ones that had closed including Crystal Palace, Newcastle, Glasgow, New Cross and Canterbury (amongst others). He was a showman of the first order and could put thousands on the gate (when speedway crowds numbered in the thousands!) Johnnie Hoskins was a larger than life character who should be remembered fondly and in some reverence for the outstanding contribution he made to speedway. What he did not do however was to invent the sport. The meeting at Maitland on 15 December 1923 was no different to dozens of other meetings that were being held and had been held at race tracks across Australia for at least a decade. The evidence for this statement is overwhelming and irrefutable. In my view to continue to pretend he did invent speedway does both him and the other pioneers of the sport a real injustice. Him, because the argument goes on and on over the Maitland meeting overshadowing all the other great things he did for speedway which tend to get lost in the controversy surrounding this. Others, because, of course, their names have been airbrushed out of history due to the ongoing debate over Hoskins's role. Please let us remember Hoskins as the great speedway man he was for the great things he did for the sport and give him his rightful place as a speedway legend while at the same time recognising what he did not do and that other people were far more instrumental in actually founding the sport than he was and let's continue the real research into the origins of speedway, which is a fascinating subject in its own right.

Is that a promise, Dave? Phew!

No interest in? Have I imagined all those posts above then or is there someone pretending to be you posting on a subject you have "absolutely no interest in"? Also, if you have "absolutely no interest in" the subject, how is it that you think you know more about it than people who have spent years researching into the subject and are interested in it?

I hope that includes the Maitland Mercury from 17 December 1923, Dave. Incidentally you can read the full story of Johnnie Hoskins's involvement with Crystal Palace and how it came about it the article I wrote for Speedway Star back in 2010. That's another newspaper article you could read, Dave.

Thanks, Steve. that would be great if you could do that.

There is a chart showing just that in Maurice Jones's book "World Speedway Final". I don't know if there is an on-line equivalent. But I can copy out the firsts and last of all of them from the book if you would like to see it.

Just remembered, thanks to prompting from Nigel, an article published in the 1948 People Speedway Guide written by John Addison, Sports Editor of The People. It begins: "They called it dirt track racing in the early days. But no-one seems to know when the sport began. Johnnie Hoskins, Grand Old Man of the Speedway has decided that the first meeting of all was in November 1923, at West Maitland. I wonder now, going back through the hazy, petrol-ridden, cinder-showered past whether or not the great John S. Hoskins has slipped...." He then goes on to write about a conversation he had with A. J Hunting who also claimed to have "invented" speedway. Dear me, how confusing. Seeing as how we have established above that people's memories are infallible, what are we to make of this?

Quite right, mick. This must be the first time ever in the history of the BSF that a thread has wandered slightly off topic. Personally, I blame waihekeaces1 for saying in the opening post on his own topic, "Hans Nielsen and anyboy"

Sadly, from what I've heard and read, Tom Farndon didn't go in much for team riding. He was more of an individual. And I know Wimbledon were the sworn enemy but you can't take it away from Ronnie Moore, possibly - no, probably - the greatest team rider of all time. Other great team riders would include Norman Parker, Ken McKinlay and Kelvin Mullarkey. Perhaps we could form a coalition, arnie...oh no, you're already taken!

Ronnie Moore and anyone

Ken McKinlay and Stan Stevens

Thank you for the link, olddon. I see the site says, "On Saturday, June 16 of 1928 though, Joe Carley1 reports that he "visited White City, Old Trafford, to see the very first Speedway meeting held in Manchester." Leaving aside the disputed meeting at Droylsden on 25 June 1927, a speedway meeting was held at Audenshaw, Manchester, on 3 March 1928 (over three months before the meeting at White City). Amongst those taking part were Keith McKay, Billy Galloway, Alec Jackson, Ginger Lees, Bob Harrison and Acorn Dobson. You see, Jack, you can't always rely on people's memories.

Johnnie Hoskins and modest....hmmmm....let me think about that one.....

Well that highly authoritative source is proof for me....

I'm not saying you can, but neither can you say that only those riding from the 60s onwards are the greatest "ever".