enotian

with what teams?

Short sighted in my opinion. Especially if you're looking to attract a new (neutral) audience via streaming. That's why the product needs to be good. Would you pay to watch the Diamonds get humiliated at Glasgow on Friday night? Ultimately if you strangle the life out of the opposition they'll disappear and there'll be even fewer teams. Just look at MotoGP and F1. They place restrictions on teams because they could see the product becoming boring with only a few riders/drivers able to win due to their financial clout. Which lead to some manufacturers leaving the series. You have to look at the wider product. Sport is about jeopardy. And lets face it how much of a thrill is winning a national speedway league? I remember the Diamonds win in 2001 and it was a great night but I didn't spend the rest of the year talking about it in the pub with my mates. It barely made the local news and didn't seem to have a significant impact on crowd levels like it probably did in the 70's. It's the ultimate cheap thrill so why damage the product for the sake of winning something nobody cares about anymore?

Where are these stand alone clubs coming from? Is there Mildenhall and Kent presently. Possibly IoW if they forgive BSPL. Potentially Workington although they might have loftier ambitions. There's only enough clubs at present for two leagues of any integrity. Newcastle should clearly drop into the NL but there just aren't enough fixtures and that's with reserve teams. I agree the young riders need to face and learn from more experienced riders which is why the standard of the 2nd division should become a sustainable hybrid of the CL and NL with current CL 2nd strings become No1's. Those CL clubs who don't want to reduce the standard can join the PL. They employ many PL riders already anyway. Having a sustainable 2nd division would potentially allow more new entrant promotions and teams to allow the sport to grow. At the moment it's starving itself of oxygen by forcing promoters to spend beyond their means.

correct my apologies but 43 points then you have 4 riders whose combined average would be circa 15 points. It would be pretty disastrous if those 4 only contributed 3 points of the back of three 1-5's. One of the 4 might even average more than the best rider in the other team. You'd be hard pushed to provide an example of a team having 4 riders failing to beat a single opponent. And the only need to do it three times to win the match. The reality is that Workington are the last team to win the Championship starting without a rider averaging less than 8.00 points and they finished someway behind Peterborough in the league table but had riders who had improved by the end of season play offs, from recollection. Noticeably no team started or ended the season with 3 riders averaging over 8. The fact that Poole followed the 3 big hitter policy last season and this would suggest there's an inherent advantage in fielding a strong top two/three, especially in a league where there aren't enough no1's to go around. At the end of last season there were only about 14 riders likely to return in 2022 who averaged over 8.00. With two clubs snapping up six of them it's not difficult to see why some teams are not competitive. You only have to look at the results so far this season to realise there's a large disparity in the team strengths. Can't be a good way to attract supporters in my opinion.

how you going to do that?

yeah it's a handful compared to what went before it. there'll always be some opportunities for British youngsters by virtue of the low starting average. But with less teams operating and some teams not being able to secure no1's and building strength in depth (even though that's sub optimal) those opportunities are now less and less. There'll always be special talents who are sought after and will achieve regardless. Robert Lambert was probably the last one but they don't come along too often. Others need sustained opportunity to progress. The CL just isn't providing that currently. Don't get me wrong youngsters can't be allowed to have protected team places without progressing but it's fairly easy to say you get 40 CL matches before your average increases regardless of your actual average. So youngsters know exactly what they need to do to retain a team place. I don't think there are any debutants at reserve in the CL this season. How long will any current NL talents continue if they never get the opportunity to progress? It's basically product development. All successful businesses do it but speedway has lost its way in trying to meet the demands of the doubling up riders which has restricted opportunities for youth to progress. They clearly know it's an issue as they wouldn't have announced the rising star system but have had to abandon it after one season because it's unworkable at the current CL level, being full of experienced double uppers.

that's right but the standard of the top division is much reduced from that era as few World Stars compete whereas in the 90's they nearly all rode in the British/Elite league. So whilst the 2nd division standard is reduced the gap between the divisions is much closer. Which I think was a deliberate move by the promoters to encourage promotion and relegation between the two divisions which just never transpired. Not sure the 90's produced British riders aplenty? Two world champs and no world cups?? Hardly any SGP round winners. Appreciate it's before your time but compared to the 70's the 90's would be considered as a a barren spell.

I think the reality is there should only be two divisions. Not many might agree but I think that the current Premiership is a decent product based on the TV matches I've watched only. But only six clubs is an issue. At least a couple of CL clubs could afford to compete at that level and sourcing 14 additional riders shouldn't dilute the product too much. The CL should become a sustainable hybrid between the current CL and NL. Used as a platform to progress British youngsters who would be the only riders allowed to ride in both divisions. With the current 4 star riders being reserves in the PL and Heat leaders in the CL. Current CL 2nd strings would become Heat Leaders (i.e. Roynon, Wright, Wethers) with any non UK riders also being Heat leaders. With the reserve births restricted to riders of limited CL experience and 2nd string for those riders with CL experience you haven't achieved Heat leader status. You can then see the career path for a youngster. SGP3, CL reserve, CL 2nd string, CL Heat Leader/PL reserve, PL 2nd string, PL Heat Leader/International rider, SGP. Some will progress more quickly than others, not all will make the grade but the opportunities should be there. And clubs would be incentivised to develop young riders with the overall aim of having British riders competing and winning on the World stage, which is still the best way of getting wider media coverage of the sport. At a more sustainable level perhaps the likes of IoW and Mildenhall could join the CL and it would certainly be easier for new entrants (Workington, Coventry, Kent) to join. Of course the problem is how do the current plethora of Double Uppers maintain their income levels? Without them increasing their demands on PL clubs? My suggestion is to run a stand alone 4TT league akin to the Hundred in cricket. Which would form the content for the BSN. Each match streamed would feature 3 away teams which should increase viewer numbers. You could even include clubs representing defunct tracks (Falcon's, Viking's, Bee's, Wasps, Heathens) to attract those lapsed supporters. There were only 2 divisions in the 70's and that produced an incredible amount of British talent because the opportunities were there with the number of tracks in operation. Now there are less tracks a more structured career path is required. The current CL doesn't really provide those opportunities.

They're not though. Averages are based on 4 rides. If your two best riders get to have 5 rides then they score more actual points than they average. And matches are won on actual points. As I posted before if you've got 3 riders who always beat the opposition that's a guaranteed 44 points. without the other 4 riders beating the opposition. By definition the 6 point riders are less consistent and invariably drop points to the lower averaged rider opposition. It used to all be about having riders who would improve on their starting average the most. Having 3 nine pointers makes that really difficult on the basis you've got to be a bit special to average 10. Now that there's a dearth of 9 pointers it doesn't matter that much as if your 9 pointers maintain their averages you'll be right up there. The format is fine if there are enough top riders to go around but there isn't at present and there's not even enough 6 pointers around to go for a strength in depth line up. Hence a number of teams being under the points limit. So teams aren't even starting level on combined average points anyway. The point which I think we can all agree on is that more competitive teams increase the chances of an improved product which can only be a good thing. Part of the answer to achieve that is to understand the limitations of averages and the heat format and adjust the rules to level the playing field. A bi-product is you'd potentially reduce the demands of the top riders knowing team places are limited which can only help.

you know that I know that but what about casual supporter or even potential new supporters. It's obvious to us that six pairs will face each other once resulting in 15 heats and maybe a semi and final. But maybe if you'd watched the SON you might think oh 23 heats in a pairs meeting that's good value. Again I'm being devils advocate as the OP was getting an unnecessary hard time for asking a valid question. I now presume you're happy to buy tins without labels and are happy to run that soup or dog food gamble. The appropriate football analogy would be the length of the game. And yes if there was a chance the match might only last 60 minutes football supporters would want to know what they're paying for. As it's been 90 minutes infinitum they don't need to ponder that. Speedway is different with different formats applicable to different types of competition. It should all be part of the promotion of the event. I don't see why wanting to know what you're paying to watch is nerdy. Just common sense especially when people have less money and there are plenty of alternatives. I don't think you can say it doesn't matter because you've been able to work out how many heats there'll be.

just to be devils advocate what happens if you pay your c£20 entrance fee buy the programme and find out there are only 10 heats? Or your team only appears three times? would you buy a tin with no label on it? So it does matter. It shouldn't have taken someone to peruse the rulebook to discover the format. To be fair I dare say the promoters would have released it nearer the time but you can't expect people to pay money for unknown content. unless you're running a lottery.

it clearly will. the heat format massively favours teams with at least two no1 riders. It's why Glasgow don't win the title because they don't back up Cook with another big hitter. They go for riders on a perceived low average. Basso/Brennan might hit no1 level this season and the strategy might work. In the current format the top two have an extra ride each and heat 13 and 15 potentially gives you an 8 point advantage. Heat 2 and 8 just don't offset because even if you build strength in depth by definition those lower averaged riders are not guaranteed to always deliver 8 points from those heats. If you're Poole and you have 3 no1's capable of beating all of the opposition there are only 3 heats in which one or more of them don't appear. i.e. only 3 heats the opposition can realistically get a heat advantage. Even then if your top three has scored 41 between them and the others are guaranteed 3 points they only need another 2 points to win. Clearly speedway matches aren't won on paper but the winning strategy is obvious. It's why Poole follow the strategy and are successful. They know what they're doing. Well played and within the rules but if it's detrimental to the product because there aren't enough heatleaders to go around or some of the teams can't afford them then you end up with less teams to defeat.

yeah and how did that work out for them??? Same owners turn it around? Or saved by wealthy owners? Not intended as a pop at Glasgow. They've turned the clubs fortunes around and it would be great if others could do the same but there just aren't that many potential owners able to risk making a loss. There will always be team at the top and a team at the bottom but if the team at the bottom has no chance why would you pay to watch? I recall Glasgow rocking up at Newcastle with Martin McKinna as 2nd heat leader and thinking there's only 4 heats worth watching here, the ones with Lawson in. Indeed they eventually folded and by the time they became Workington they only lasted weeks before being expelled for fielding too weak a side. It's just not good for business. The fact that you hope the Diamonds strengthen up by including Ben Barker tells me everything I need to know. Without him last season the Diamonds wouldn't have hit 25. Starke might do something similar on Friday and Complin might take a liking to the track but we're talking all 7 Diamonds over performing to get anywhere near 35. The thrill of it.

money. The more points you score the more you earn. Decent incentive I'd say. Then at the end of the season you get to reset the limit for next season based on the expected available riders and what average they're on and how many teams are in the league so it would be complete folly for riders to 2nd guess next years rules. It's not complicated. They stopped it in the Premiership because there were no top line riders left. And to be honest the fact the the promoters stopped doing it is probably arguing in favour adopting it given their track record for decision making. Look at any successful business and the focus is on the product. If you think Glasgow vs Newcastle this coming Friday is a great product and advert for speedway fair play to you. But based on falling attendances everywhere it would suggest not many agree. Soon there'll be a 6 team Championship which, like the Premiership will improve the product but it hardly screams major sport.

Because you want to be entertained by watching two teams who have at least a realistic chance of being at least competitive. Unless you're entertained by whitewashes against cannon fodder. If you think it through restricting teams to one rider over 8.00 points at the start of the season results in supply exceeding demand. Which means every team might benefit from reduced demands from those no1's. The richest teams will still secure the best no1 riders and inevitably the best teams but at least they'll face competitive opposition. Or maybe we should just cut out the middle man and hold an auction to decide who pays most to win a title? Would avoid losing money on those zero entertainment matches against woefully weak opposition.

Having said on the 'BSN Streaming Channel' thread that this was a crazy fixture to pick for the first ever match, I have to now say it has the look of a cracking match. Perhaps the promoters knew Birmingham were going to add Ellis, Vissing and Pearson when they made the choice? Or maybe they got lucky? Who cares as it looks like being a really competitive fixture. I think Birmingham can't afford to have any passengers as I'm expecting Flint to step up this season. To hard to call.

Glad to hear that. Watching the Diamonds is a big enough pain in the ass . Sorry couldn't resist but really glad to hear in all seriousness that the Redcar promotion have listened to the fans in this respect. One of the reason's I lost interest. Takes all the momentum from a meeting.

I watched Eurosports Preview of WSB season yesterday and during the adverts they had a Bikes Bikes Bikes trailer which stated that WSB, BSB, Speedway GB and Premiership Speedway would all feature on Eurosport and Discovery Sport. Clear as mud but I guest it's up to them what they show live or Eurosport. But guessing there'll at least be highlights shown.

Valid. And to be honest I'd expect some regrading after the practice to bring some of the top surface back during the team presentation so a limited time to change the track massively. I'm guessing that two riders at a time is less disruptive to the track than a free for all would be. Would need a more learned track curator to comment on what is possible. Of course if the weather means track prep will take longer the practice would be cancelled. Worth investigating if it would improve the product.

Didn't the Diamonds do it to Sheffield after a typically rubbish Owlerton display? I recall because I didn't bother going to the 2nd leg but my dad who would pay to watch paint dry did and was smug for weeks. But it's basically two rubbish matches isn't it, two massive home wins. Don't ask the year as they all merge into one at my age. A few laps just before tapes up hardly gives riders time to make adjustments though. I'm thinking more of a structured pre match practice. Say two riders at a time for a 5 minute practice so 35 mins of practice in total before the line up presentation. If the riders want to do it. Maybe do interviews with those who do after their practice. F1 and Moto GP make 3 days out of exactly that. 2 if you consider qualifying as an event. The riders wouldn't get paid to practice so no extra cost to add an extra 35 mins of 'entertainment' for those who want to see it. If you don't just turn up for the tapes up time. Personally I'd just turn up for the start of the match but if the knock on effect is that both sets of riders are more well prepared for the real action then the match is likely to be more entertaining.

Based on the fact that we're told that it takes a couple of heats for the track to bed in, it makes complete sense that all the riders are offered the opportunity of practice laps pre meeting. You could even make it part of the pre match and it would likely improve the on track action. Won't happen because it would give the away team a better chance of winning and as we all know the home team must win at all costs.

Cheers man. I'll probably get over it by the time Chris Allen get's his first maximum for the Bandits.

I'm sure David Beckham has image rights. So you can't take a picture of him and use it to sell as a David Beckham product. You can publish pictures of him as part of a media publication of course but you couldn't take a picture of him and sell it as a poster. Which is more akin to what a sticker album is. Or if you did you'd have to pay him for using his image. Quite simple to set up as lots of people have found that the pictures they've used on dating apps are being used as fake profiles on other apps. Because they don't read the T&C's. A nice little extra income stream for those dating apps.

Wonder if any of the riders have image rights in their contracts. Some have their own merchandise don't they. It is a 3rd party who are taking the risk and reward on this. Probably worth getting one as I imagine it'll be a collectors item. The 2022 sticker album never to be replicated.

Apparently so Obviously I was referring to Chris Harris' victory at the British Mathletics Championships in which he won gold in the multiplication category. Fr!ggIng predictive text.