The Greatest Riders

[Guest]

I'm pretty 0atriotic, but Geoff Mardon making the list ahead of jack young!??

Bit like saying Mike bast is one of the top 20 of all time?

I'm pretty patriotic, but Geoff Mardon making the list ahead of jack young!??

Bit like saying Mike bast is one of the top 20 of all time?

 

An excellent comment waihekeaces1 in regard to Jack Young. Where is he in my list? But don't take it as being 'cast in stone.' May be I will do a revise on the era. And after all, sarcastic comments aside, they are a personal viewpoint and put forward on this thread for other members to express their views.

And I did raise a smile to see you have dragged up the Mike Bast theme again. I thought that point had been settled and my original view about his standing has long been withdrawn by me. I also see that you ensured your comment would be seen TWICE!

Edited December 16, 2016 by Guest

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

I don't think so Sid, all about opinions though I suppose. Then again on another point what if Bernie had won the run off. How would that have changed his career. Would he have been regarded as the worst ever world champion. Great rider though he was! Interesting eh

Great to see that even though you were a big Bernie fan you were not blinkered about your opinion on that incident.I must of watched the incident endless times over/over again yet i am still not really sure about who was to blame.One thing is for sure i enjoyed watching Persson ride very much over his career and i think he is like Boulger he is often not mentioned but both were terrific riders.

What are your feelings on my rating for Peter Craven then Sidney the robin? I would be most interested in your point of view.

I would have Craven in the top six in front of Parker,Price,Lamoreaux, and Knutsson certainly in a top 10 a great list though.

[steve roberts 9,246]

Great to see that even though you were a big Bernie fan you were not blinkered about your opinion on that incident.I must of watched the incident endless times over/over again yet i am still not really sure about who was to blame.One thing is for sure i enjoyed watching Persson ride very much over his career and i think he is like Boulger he is often not mentioned but both were terrific riders.

I would have Craven in the top six in front of Parker,Price,Lamoreaux, and Knutsson certainly in a top 10 a great list though.

I'm of the same view Sid. Watched it many times and although Persson rode a tough first bend Briggo has admitted many times since that he left him too much room. Not sure if Briggo would have gone on to win the Final however. Olsen was on fire and literally threw the title away in one reckless move when over doing it attempting to pass Christer Lofqvist...meanwhile Ivan took it all in his usual professional stride and ended up victorious! A great final with lots of incident!

[Guest]

Your 1949-68 list seems a bit biased towards the earlier part of the period I would say, gustix, though strangely, Ivan Mauger gets in at no. 2. I think I would definitely include Nigel Boocock and Ken McKinlay in that list, possibly Sverre Harrfeldt. I would be a bit unsure about including Wilbur Lamoreaux and Graham Warren, good as they were, they only had a very limited time at the top. Dick Bradley would probably be the other one I'd leave out for Harrfeldt. Also I think I'd put in Ron How rather than Alan Hunt.

 

Oh yes, and I agree Plechanov rather than Mardon.

 

Oh yes, and how could anyone leave Jack Young out!?

 

Understandably there have been criticisms of my 1949-68 rider list - most of which I take on board. Now that they have appeared I can say no more than what is badly needed is a redraft of my list. Indeed what can only be described as 'glaring omissions' have been made and urgently need to be rectified. As a matter of interest while not a Post on here I have received a PM asking why the legendary Leif 'Base' Hveem is not placed in my chart!

One name that has been queried several times is that of Wilbur Lamoeeaux based on the shortness of his time - especially after WW2 - in British speedway. I still feel his inclusion to be justified as my opinions were based on rider reputations worldwide and Lammy was a recognised class rider into that sphere from the 1930s onwards in not only the UK, but also his native USA and Australia.

For my part, I would like to recompile by 1949-68 rider list, bearing in mind the advice that has appeared from other BSF members in regard to it. But at the moment I refrain from doing this - mainly because there is a batch of BSF detractors who delight in 'errors on my part' and such n action by me would in old-time terms 'add firepower to their canons.'

[norbold 7,109]

 

Understandably there have been criticisms of my 1949-68 rider list - most of which I take on board. Now that they have appeared I can say no more than what is badly needed is a redraft of my list. Indeed what can only be described as 'glaring omissions' have been made and urgently need to be rectified. As a matter of interest while not a Post on here I have received a PM asking why the legendary Leif 'Base' Hveem is not placed in my chart!

One name that has been queried several times is that of Wilbur Lamoeeaux based on the shortness of his time - especially after WW2 - in British speedway. I still feel his inclusion to be justified as my opinions were based on rider reputations worldwide and Lammy was a recognised class rider into that sphere from the 1930s onwards in not only the UK, but also his native USA and Australia.

For my part, I would like to recompile by 1949-68 rider list, bearing in mind the advice that has appeared from other BSF members in regard to it. But at the moment I refrain from doing this - mainly because there is a batch of BSF detractors who delight in 'errors on my part' and such n action by me would in old-time terms 'add firepower to their canons.'

It wasn't meant as a "criticism" as such, just my take on your list. I don't think any of us would agree on the Top 20. It is a subjective thing and everyone will have their own opinion.

 

The problem of riders who only rode for one or two years in any period is always a problem in lists like this. When Tony Mac asked me to compile a list of the top 20 British riders of the 60s for Classic Speedway, I had a real problem knowing where to place Peter Craven. In the end I placed him third behind Nigel Boocock and Ken McKinlay on the grounds that they were top riders throughout the whole decade. But if anyone argued that Craven should be top I would fully understand their point. Similarly with Lamoreaux and Warren in your list. Just my opinion that the whole decade/period should be taken into account.

Edited December 16, 2016 by norbold

[Guest]

 

Understandably there have been criticisms of my 1949-68 rider list - most of which I take on board. Now that they have appeared I can say no more than what is badly needed is a redraft of my list. Indeed what can only be described as 'glaring omissions' have been made and urgently need to be rectified. As a matter of interest while not a Post on here I have received a PM asking why the legendary Leif 'Base' Hveem is not placed in my chart!

One name that has been queried several times is that of Wilbur Lamoeeaux based on the shortness of his time - especially after WW2 - in British speedway. I still feel his inclusion to be justified as my opinions were based on rider reputations worldwide and Lammy was a recognised class rider into that sphere from the 1930s onwards in not only the UK, but also his native USA and Australia.

For my part, I would like to recompile my 1949-68 rider list, bearing in mind the advice that has appeared from other BSF members in regard to it. But at the moment I refrain from doing this - mainly because there is a batch of BSF detractors who delight in 'errors on my part' and such n action by me would in old-time terms 'add firepower to their canons.'

 

 

It wasn't meant as a "criticism" as such, just my take on your list. I don't think any of us would agree on the Top 20. It is a subjective thing and everyone will have their own opinion.

 

The problem of riders who only rode for one or two years in any period is always a problem in lists like this. When Mac asked me to compile a list of the top 20 British riders of the 60s for Classic Speedway, I had a real problem knowing where to place Peter Craven. In the end I placed him third behind Nigel Boocock and Ken McKinlay on the grounds that they were top riders throughout the whole decade. But if anyone argued that Craven should be top I would fully understand their point. Similarly with Lamoreaux and Warren in your list. Just my opinion that the whole decade/period should be taken into account.

 

Valid comment norbold and fully understood and accepted by me. For all that, I now feel some major errors/omissions were made in my list which need rectifying and which I am anxious to do.

​The point is, as I commented previously, is "For my part, I would like to recompile by 1949-68 rider list, bearing in mind the advice that has appeared from other BSF members in regard to it. But at the moment I refrain from doing this - mainly because there is a batch of BSF detractors who delight in 'errors on my part' and such n action by me would in old-time terms 'add firepower to their canons.'

For that reason I am unsure about 'recreating my list' - which i feel is much needed - for concerns about the possible 'BSF abuse' I will face from certain other members if I take this course of action.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Guest

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

Valid comment norbold and fully understood and accepted by me. For all that, I now feel some major errors/omissions were made in my list which need rectifying and which I am anxious to do.

​The point is, as I commented previously, is "For my part, I would like to recompile by 1949-68 rider list, bearing in mind the advice that has appeared from other BSF members in regard to it. But at the moment I refrain from doing this - mainly because there is a batch of BSF detractors who delight in 'errors on my part' and such n action by me would in old-time terms 'add firepower to their canons.'

For that reason I am unsure about 'recreating'y list - which i feel is much needed - for concerns about the possible 'BSF abuse' I will face from certain other members if I take this course of action.

Dont worry just do it Gustix a very enjoyable thread and as Norbold has said all of us on here would never agree on a top 20.

I'm of the same view Sid. Watched it many times and although Persson rode a tough first bend Briggo has admitted many times since that he left him too much room. Not sure if Briggo would have gone on to win the Final however. Olsen was on fire and literally threw the title away in one reckless move when over doing it attempting to pass Christer Lofqvist...meanwhile Ivan took it all in his usual professional stride and ended up victorious! A great final with lots of incident!

My take is Steve if Briggo had of won that race could he not of won the Final on 14 points.?Excepting that Ole was on fire Briggo maybe could of been conservative in there meeting and 14 would of been anough HINDSIGHT a big thing eh Steve.!!

[The White Knight 9,039]

Dont worry just do it Gustix a very enjoyable thread and as Norbold has said all of us on here would never agree on a top 20.

My take is Steve if Briggo had of won that race could he not of won the Final on 14 points.?Excepting that Ole was on fire Briggo maybe could of been conservative in there meeting and 14 would of been anough HINDSIGHT a big thing eh Steve.!!

I totally agree. Well said Sid.

 

An excellent Thread this and I hope it will stay on Topic. I love reading about the 'old stagers' who should never be forgotten. It is great that those who actually saw some of these Great Riders can tell us of their experiences.

 

As I said - Superb Thread - Superb read.

[bruno 1,790]

I wonder if some of you would give me your views how Bernie would have been perceived if he had won the run off in 72, more of a shock than the pole the following year?

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

I wonder if some of you would give me your views how Bernie would have been perceived if he had won the run off in 72, more of a shock than the pole the following year?

No i dont think so Persson in a way was an unfashionable rider but he was not a no hoper in speedway i think he was well respected as a world class rider.Jerzy S was different but i can always remember what Ivan had said about Jerzy S he said he always felt he was just as much as a danger as the much heralded Plech. Edited December 16, 2016 by Sidney the robin

[norbold 7,109]

No i dont think so Persson in a way was an unfashionable rider but he was not a no hoper in speedway i think he was well respected as a world class rider.Jerzy S was different but i can always remember what Ivan had said about Jerzy S he said he always felt he was just as much as a danger as the much heralded Plech.

I agree with that. It would have been a big surprise if Persson had won and he would probably be ranked quite low in the all-time list of World Champions, but I don't think it would have been seen as anything like as big a shock as Jerzy S winning it. Persson was a good rider and could beat the best on his day.

[Guest]

No i dont think so Persson in a way was an unfashionable rider but he was not a no hoper in speedway i think he was well respected as a world class rider.Jerzy S was different but i can always remember what Ivan had said about Jerzy S he said he always felt he was just as much as a danger as the much heralded Plech.

 

 

This is interesting item in regard to race clashes between Jerzy Szczakeil and Ivan Mauger as recorded on Wikipedia: "As a measure of Szczakeil's skill as a rider, between 1971 and 1973 he raced Ivan Mauger 13 times - and won 6, including beating him twice in the 1973 World Final."

 

You may find this biography article about Szczakeil worth reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Szczakiel

Edited December 16, 2016 by Guest

[bruno 1,790]

Thanks for that, interesting

[waiheke1 4,295]

 

 

This is interesting item in regard to race clashes between Jerzy Szczakeil and Ivan Mauger as recorded on Wikipedia: "As a measure of Szczakeil's skill as a rider, between 1971 and 1973 he raced Ivan Mauger 13 times - and won 6, including beating him twice in the 1973 World Final."

 

You may find this biography article about Szczakeil worth reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Szczakiel

Would be interesting to know how many (if any)of the occasions that he beat Mauger were outside of Poland

[Guest]

I agree with that. It would have been a big surprise if Persson had won and he would probably be ranked quite low in the all-time list of World Champions, but I don't think it would have been seen as anything like as big a shock as Jerzy S winning it. Persson was a good rider and could beat the best on his day.

 

1972 Wembley - Ivan Mauger v Bernt Persson World Championship run-off:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16WLb7Znpb8