Just A Thought...

[iris123 20,984]

I think one forumite rates a rider who never won a world title and threatened to kill a fellow rider on track over Tai.And as far as I can tell that is because Tai has tattoos!!!!! Strange world,strange petson

[chunky 6,092]

So his behaviour counts for nothing in your eyes then?

If you are asking, "Does his behaviour negate his ability and achievements?", then the answer is a resounding "NO"! No matter how hard you try, Penhall proved himself on the track. Same with Carter. Most of us know that there are those out there who want his name expunged from speedway history. Tough. What he did was wrong, very wrong, but his record on the track speaks for itself.

 

I really don't understand why people get so butthurt when somebody has the audacity to use logic, reason, and FACT to substantiate their position.

 

You admit yourself that Carter was brilliant, but cannot bring yourself to say the same about Penhall? So, are you saying that it is okay to murder your wife and still be rated as a speedway great, but to retire mid-season to take up other employment is absolutely unforgivable?

 

Steve

[foamfence 2,917]

If you are asking, "Does his behaviour negate his ability and achievements?", then the answer is a resounding "NO"! No matter how hard you try, Penhall proved himself on the track. Same with Carter. Most of us know that there are those out there who want his name expunged from speedway history. Tough. What he did was wrong, very wrong, but his record on the track speaks for itself.

 

I really don't understand why people get so butthurt when somebody has the audacity to use logic, reason, and FACT to substantiate their position.

 

You admit yourself that Carter was brilliant, but cannot bring yourself to say the same about Penhall? So, are you saying that it is okay to murder your wife and still be rated as a speedway great, but to retire mid-season to take up other employment is absolutely unforgivable?

 

Steve

Carter was an honest racer, Penhall is remembered for not being so.

[moxey63 1,785]

Interesting to see all the online comments regarding Lewis Hamilton today. With a fourth World Championship under his belt (more than any other British driver), he is being lauded as an all-time great.

 

Tai Woffinden, on the other hand, has two World Championships to his name, along with a second and a third (more than any other British rider), yet there are speedway fans who don't even consider him even ONE of the best Brits.

 

Sigh...

 

Steve

 

Just think Tai was fortunate and won his titles when there's been a lack of genuine world class riders. You have a near-50 year-old still a threat; an Aussie who could be on his second successive win (but for injury) when Leigh Adams, a real star rider took yonks to win even one round. Jason Doyle or Jason Crump? Where have all the star names gone. No consistency these days.

Edited October 30, 2017 by moxey63

[chunky 6,092]

Carter was an honest racer, Penhall is remembered for not being so.

Assuming you are talking about the infamous incident at White City, then you must also feel the same way about Olsen, Gundersen, Mauger, Betts, and countless other riders who have done exactly the same thing?

 

 

Just think Tai was fortunate and won his titles when there's been a lack of genuine world class riders. You have a near-50 year-old still a threat; an Aussie who could be on his second successive win (but for injury) when Leigh Adams, a real star rider took yonks to win even one round. Jason Doyle or Jason Crump? Where have all the star names gone. No consistency these days.

You do raise some interesting points. I am not sure if there has been a lack of genuine world-class riders, or perhaps a lot of us are just living in the past? When we think of "superstars", it is easy to come up with Moore, Fundin, Nielsen, Collins, Mauger, Penhall etc, but it does seem that we are reluctant - VERY reluctant - to accept that some of the modern era riders are the equivalent.

 

I do accept your point about the consistency, but is that because the riders aren't as good, or is it that there are so many at the same level? Of course, it could be - and this is my own personal feeling - that the tracks and the machinery have a much bigger impact than we really want to believe.

 

Steve

Edited October 30, 2017 by chunky

[The White Knight 9,039]

Assuming you are talking about the infamous incident at White City, then you must also feel the same way about Olsen, Gundersen, Mauger, Betts, and countless other riders who have done exactly the same thing?

 

You do raise some interesting points. I am not sure if there has been a lack of genuine world-class riders, or perhaps a lot of us are just living in the past? When we think of "superstars", it is easy to come up with Moore, Fundin, Nielsen, Collins, Mauger, Penhall etc, but it does seem that we are reluctant - VERY reluctant - to accept that some of the modern era riders are the equivalent.

 

I do accept your point about the consistency, but is that because the riders aren't as good, or is it that there are so many at the same level? Of course, it could be - and this is my own personal feeling - that the tracks and the machinery have a much bigger impact than we really want to believe.

 

Steve

Errr - No!!!

 

They didn't make it so bloody obvious.

[chunky 6,092]

Errr - No!!!

 

They didn't make it so bloody obvious.

So, it IS okay to do that, then? Just make sure you don't get caught!!!

 

Steve

[foamfence 2,917]

Assuming you are talking about the infamous incident at White City, then you must also feel the same way about Olsen, Gundersen, Mauger, Betts, and countless other riders who have done exactly the same thing?

 

You do raise some interesting points. I am not sure if there has been a lack of genuine world-class riders, or perhaps a lot of us are just living in the past? When we think of "superstars", it is easy to come up with Moore, Fundin, Nielsen, Collins, Mauger, Penhall etc, but it does seem that we are reluctant - VERY reluctant - to accept that some of the modern era riders are the equivalent.

 

I do accept your point about the consistency, but is that because the riders aren't as good, or is it that there are so many at the same level? Of course, it could be - and this is my own personal feeling - that the tracks and the machinery have a much bigger impact than we really want to believe.

 

Steve

Personally I 'feel the same way' about anyone who rigs race results, we had mentioned Carter and Penhall, so I was hardly going to raise a list of other names. It was riders rigging races and then admitting it to newspapers that contributed greatly to the downfall of the sport in this country and the perception among the general public and much of the media that it is nothing more than a circus act.

[The White Knight 9,039]

So, it IS okay to do that, then? Just make sure you don't get caught!!!

 

Steve

Better that than take the p!ss out of the paying Spectators.

 

So the answer to your question is - YES!!!

[Mr Ore 204]

Better that than take the p!ss out of the paying Spectators.

 

So the answer to your question is - YES!!!

On the subject of taking the piss out of the paying spectators, the ultimate must surely have been Ivan Mauger pulling up in the race off to avoid getting the number 13 jacket in the World Final and having to ride in heats 4 and 5. Blatant, yet he is revered by those who criticise others for lesser indiscretions, including having tattoos. I'm certainly no Penhall fan but the incident always cited at White City had no effect on the actual qualifiers. Had Penhall won that heat his fellow countrymen who got through would have still qualified, but he would have been Overseas Champion. Tai gets dog's abuse for allegedly not helping his country yet the same abuse is thrown at Bruce for putting his country before himself. Another case of moaning for moaning's sake?

[chunky 6,092]

On the subject of taking the piss out of the paying spectators, the ultimate must surely have been Ivan Mauger pulling up in the race off to avoid getting the number 13 jacket in the World Final and having to ride in heats 4 and 5. Blatant, yet he is revered by those who criticise others for lesser indiscretions, including having tattoos. I'm certainly no Penhall fan but the incident always cited at White City had no effect on the actual qualifiers. Had Penhall won that heat his fellow countrymen who got through would have still qualified, but he would have been Overseas Champion. Tai gets dog's abuse for allegedly not helping his country yet the same abuse is thrown at Bruce for putting his country before himself. Another case of moaning for moaning's sake?

Thank you for your comment! In addition to "helping" team-mates in individual competition, that Mauger incident is one that has always stuck in my memory. People seem to pick and choose what is and what isn't acceptable...

 

Personally I 'feel the same way' about anyone who rigs race results, we had mentioned Carter and Penhall, so I was hardly going to raise a list of other names. It was riders rigging races and then admitting it to newspapers that contributed greatly to the downfall of the sport in this country and the perception among the general public and much of the media that it is nothing more than a circus act.

Honestly, I don't feel that "helping" a team-mate is the same as "rigging" races. Obviously, the Penhall incident is still fresh in the minds of many, but everyone seems to have forgotten - or have chosen to ignore - the sight of Olsen waving Gundersen back to allow Bo Petersen to qualify for a run-off against PC and Andy Grahame...

 

Steve

Edited October 31, 2017 by chunky

[foamfence 2,917]

Thank you for your comment! In addition to "helping" team-mates in individual competition, that Mauger incident is one that has always stuck in my memory. People seem to pick and choose what is and what isn't acceptable...

 

Honestly, I don't feel that "helping" a team-mate is the same as "rigging" races. Obviously, the Penhall incident is still fresh in the minds of many, but everyone seems to have forgotten - or have chosen to ignore - the sight of Olsen waving Gundersen back to allow Bo Petersen to qualify for a run-off against PC and Andy Grahame...

 

Steve

In an individual event you're supposed to ride for yourself.

[steve roberts 9,246]

On the subject of taking the piss out of the paying spectators, the ultimate must surely have been Ivan Mauger pulling up in the race off to avoid getting the number 13 jacket in the World Final and having to ride in heats 4 and 5. Blatant, yet he is revered by those who criticise others for lesser indiscretions, including having tattoos. I'm certainly no Penhall fan but the incident always cited at White City had no effect on the actual qualifiers. Had Penhall won that heat his fellow countrymen who got through would have still qualified, but he would have been Overseas Champion. Tai gets dog's abuse for allegedly not helping his country yet the same abuse is thrown at Bruce for putting his country before himself. Another case of moaning for moaning's sake?

The problem was that the FIM in their infinite wisdom making it known the riding order for the next qualifying stage based on placings at the previous.

 

Personally can't blame Mauger (and others) using that to their advantage in which to gain a better starting number thus avoiding two races on the trot or evenly spaced races.

 

Races have been thrown, bought etc since the commencement of speedway racing and was/is nothing new.

Edited October 31, 2017 by steve roberts

[steve roberts 9,246]

Personally I 'feel the same way' about anyone who rigs race results, we had mentioned Carter and Penhall, so I was hardly going to raise a list of other names. It was riders rigging races and then admitting it to newspapers that contributed greatly to the downfall of the sport in this country and the perception among the general public and much of the media that it is nothing more than a circus act.

...personally I never took the Sunday People's allegations particularly seriously at the time...a newspaper (is it still around?) known for it's sleazy editorials and/or content and sensational story lines who in an attempt to justify it's editorial then print an alleged investigatory journalistic report. John Louis in his autobiography goes at length in explaining the way in which the 'reporters' went about their business in an attempt to 'get a story'.

 

As Ivan Mauger was quoted as saying "Who reads your f**king paper anyway!"

Edited October 31, 2017 by steve roberts

[Humphrey Appleby 13,955]

Carter was an honest racer, Penhall is remembered for not being so.

I think on balance, Id prefer a dishonest rider who doesnt murder people.