HGould 2,213 Posted August 6, 2021 10 minutes ago, Trackerman48 said: Think you will find that something will come out Monday sometime? Regarding two teams. Hopefully good for both. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iainb 5,015 Posted August 6, 2021 4 hours ago, mikebv said: Less than 1000 and given the large % fluctuation potential with such low numbers from week to week (eg Newcastle, Brum, the issue Eastbourne had GP weekend), then you should be looking at NDL I would suggest... Losing 200 out of an expected 800 is actually massive as that is a 25% impact which all businesses would suffer badly from, therefore if fans make it so abundantly clear that they have so ittle emotional loyalty to your brand and product, then you should be very, very, cautious in your planning.... So Eastbourne are not only consulting mystic meg for the weather in Eastbourne and the Radio Times for the TV listings... they've now got to ask mystic meg to put together a forecast for Lublin on Saturday night! What if that's rained off? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sings4Speedway 3,247 Posted August 6, 2021 13 hours ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: But how were they to know that they don't have a crystal ball... he had the money until the VAT carry on broke... and it was a case of let's try and offer something different but it backfired so dammed if he did and dammed if he didn't and the galling thing is he had put together quite a good NDL team... which brings up the next point... The costs of putting on a meeting at Brough are quite cost prohibitive.... how many of that hard core support would have remained faithful to the club and a stand alone NDL team... when you seen the numbers that stopped back for the NDL meetings it would not have been enough to cover the rent let alone pay everything else like riders wages... so either way the business haemorrhages money... I accept the premise of what you are saying but it always comes back to the risk and at the end of the day it isn't your or my money at risk it's Rob Grant... Also fans would expect to pay a lesser admission fee as they perceive they are seeing a lesser product... so ergo you would need more through the turnstiles... To pay for the running costs before you pay a rider you would need a minimum of 250 through the doors at say 10 quid entry and that's before you pay any riders wages... it's back to the streaming arguement again the outlay isn't or can't guarantee the required return... so ultimately is the risk worth it... Regards THJ Certainly interesting that there is some sort of figure to use when noting the cost of staging a meeting at Newcastle. However i still believe that NDL teams could be assembled with riders earning just £10 a point. The riders are out there and are desperate to ride. On that basis £2500 to stage the meeting £500 for points monies is 300 through the gate at a tenner a head. Yes that would leave a shortfall on away points and travel funds. The shortfall for a season is likely to be a similar figure quoted as some single home meetings? Back to basics and let the sport grow from the bottom. Those riders who don't want a tenner a point can step away or try and ply their trade in the higher leagues until they all inevitably fold or drop down. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iainb 5,015 Posted August 6, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: So what you are really saying is your just stirring it... Never mind... Sore finger getting tired failing eyesight and starting to flag its been a long day... and there is a whole one not touched yet tomorrow... You keep a hold of your self and we will catch up tomorrow Regards THJ I hope you've given that finger of yours a good rest overnight and I know we can keep this to and fro jousting up without being disrespectful or hostile... But I'm not stirring it at all, I am in fact semi serious. Now we both know clubs are not going to get £300m each but from what RobGod was saying money is available to be applied for. I'm not going to use the word promoter but club owner, if you're a club owner at the moment there is no way out, even Matt Ford can't offload the Manchester United of Speedway, the only option he's got is to make the best out of a bad job and run his club according to the crowds he gets. At the start of the season you had the madness of clubs opening up under Covid crowd restrictions that they should have known damn well they couldn't sustain... and out came the begging bowl for some of them. If you can't sell your club and you can't make it pay on the crowds you are getting (for whatever reason) and there appears to be no plan to MSGA (Make Speedway Great Again) then you either close... or seek a coronavirus loan, if the government are stupid enough to loan money to failing businesses in a failing sport they can't really expect to get their money back and I can't see how the directors would be personally liable for that loan. There will be businesses out there (not Speedway) that will be taking Coronaloans, paying themselves a big fat salary, paying back director loans etc. and syphoning money out of their businesses, that's up to them and it's not what I'm suggesting Speedway should do. When I say let the administrators run the sport after it's all gone bankrupt, well my tongue is half in my cheek when I say that as really it's what's needed to get the sport back on the straight and narrow. So the choices are close (losing your money), make it pay (which most clubs can't) or take the loan and worry about it later and hope for a miracle that turns the sport around into a profit making business so that you can pay the loan back. Edited August 6, 2021 by iainb 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TotallyHonestJohn 3,078 Posted August 6, 2021 4 hours ago, mikebv said: At the start of the season I read something from the BSPL that went along the lines that their plan will mean all teams "will now be able to put out as high a level of speedway as is currently possible"... Meaning that although the "best riders" aren't here a "decent level of rider is"... Surely your crowd levels should simply dictate the level of rider you can use not "a wish list"... For me, get 1000 plus every week and you should be top tier. (Can't believe such low numbers appear 'good' but never mind)... Less than 1000 and given the large % fluctuation potential with such low numbers from week to week (eg Newcastle, Brum, the issue Eastbourne had GP weekend), then you should be looking at NDL I would suggest... Losing 200 out of an expected 800 is actually massive as that is a 25% impact which all businesses would suffer badly from, therefore if fans make it so abundantly clear that they have so little emotional loyalty to your brand and product, then you should be very, very, cautious in your planning.... The NDL though appeared to be the one league that worked, and seemed to work well, and a 500 crowd would seem to be "more than enough", to remain solvent. . I went to Poole v Leicester last week in the 2nd tier and watched 11 out of 14 riders who will appear in the top tier this week... That frankly is ludicrous and can only be down to 2nd tier promoters wanting to have their teams with these riders, however they are in a league with clubs that simply don't have the finances to support that level of rider... Ironically, Poole got some criticism for dropping down but fair play to them from a business perspective.. They are getting decent crowds, (as they always did), are not paying out 'stupid money' to world class talent, and have been able to drop their prices accordingly which can only encourage more visitors. (It got me there)... (The ridiculous fact that all clubs can pick and choose at whim where they compete is a point for another day).. However, bringing a 'Poole' into tier two, or having a 'Glasgow', or a 'Leicester' simply means that league has too far a disparate crowd level from top to bottom, hence those at the lower end of the crowd chain will, if they want to compete, have do so well above their means... Of course, (going back to the NDL), given the NDL was "doing well" it was broken up. And you have to ask yourself why...? Maybe the unpalatable truth is that this could really be the 'de facto' affordable level of Speedway in the UK for the large majority of clubs and was too much to face for some..? BV, KL, Peterborough, Ipswich, Wolves, Sheffield, (on a Thursday), Poole, (on a Wednesday), Glasgow (whatever day they choose), and Leicester (on a Saturday) should be top tier. (And add Swindon should they ever make a return).. Nine/Ten 'Elite' teams being in the flagship top league with a high team strength level to provide full time professionals with work and have no "makeweights" in any of these teams just to get under an "average"... With all the other clubs being in some amalgam of either "Championship Lite" or (a pre covid) 'NDL Plus' level of team strength, made up of semi pro riders.... When you have 14 full time professional riders to pay from a crowd of 600 or so, it simply won't work will it? And all you can do then is raise your prices to fund it... Price increases which then drop your crowd to 550, then 500, then 450 etc etc etc... Surely someone in Speedway will say "enough is enough" and stop this continual race to the bottom? Although we normally sing off the same hymn sheet Mike there is a lot of what you have put above I don't agree with. First off there is nothing "Top Tier" about British Speedway these days and we need to drop the terms Elite and Premier as this is marketing under false pretences there is nothing Elite about the product. Poland and Brexit have seen to that and if the Poles decide to make all their riders ride in just one league that will be a few more less for selection... The NDL was a joke as it was treat like a top league by promoters with riders on £800 guarantees and deciding not to ride in other leagues but choose the easy option of sitting in the NDL... Promoters are their own worst enemies as they try and operate like football clubs but for every Man City who can afford a Jack Grealish at 100 million quid and on a couple of hundred grand a week salary there are thousands of other clubs that can only dream of such ambition. Football at the top levels oare supported by billions of pounds of high paying revenue sources Speedway doesn't have two pennies to rub together. Promoters are the issue here there is no one else to blame as it those guys who cant get their act together and they don't like hearing that either. There is a race for all the top riders to be seen to smash all other teams and win everything and its only money that does that; which is back to the football scenario however football has the world to choose from and the Premiership here is where every one wants to play however in Speedway the roles are reversed as its Poland who have all the cash and it is Poland where all the riders aspire to be. That in now and wont change any time soon. There aren't Nine or Ten 'Elite' teams in the country to run a flagship top league as the riders we have available are only second strings in Poland at best and it is going to be harder to be a Professional in this country because the wages aren't sustainable to provide full time professionals with work. Gone are the days when guys like the Owen Brothers took all before them in the second tier and when the went up a league struggled at 6 and 7 initially in a team resplendent in international riders. The Sport moved on unfortunately the UK did not follow suit. I was told off a BSPL committee member that if the riders didn't ride in two leagues in this country they would qit because they could not make it pay!!! well let them quit and get a job because Speedway is no longer a full time Professional Sport in the UK Poland and Brexit have seen to that and the way the sport in governed with the tail invariable wagging the dog... I agree that something needs done and there does need to be more teams in League 1 than there are in League 2 and this ridiculous curry star rating system and other manufactured ways of trying to manipulate the riders for team building needs to stop... there needs to be a fundamental sea change in the sport both in attitude and in delivery of the product... Surely following this year we will see something radical happening. Finally you don't have 14 full time professional riders to pay from a crowd of 600, you have 7 home riders to pay for and then hope you make enough from your 600 punters to cover your own 7 riders for the corresponding away meeting. If there was ever a time for 6 man teams and electric bikes its now and on your last point someone in Speedway has said "enough is enough" and that is "The Fans" at many clubs. I wanted to expand this further but being at graft and busy I am struggling for time and there is another point I want to pick up on Regards THJ 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TotallyHonestJohn 3,078 Posted August 6, 2021 34 minutes ago, Sings4Speedway said: Certainly interesting that there is some sort of figure to use when noting the cost of staging a meeting at Newcastle. However I still believe that NDL teams could be assembled with riders earning just £10 a point. The riders are out there and are desperate to ride. On that basis £2500 to stage the meeting £500 for points monies is 300 through the gate at a tenner a head. Yes that would leave a shortfall on away points and travel funds. The shortfall for a season is likely to be a similar figure quoted as some single home meetings? Back to basics and let the sport grow from the bottom. Those riders who don't want a tenner a point can step away or try and ply their trade in the higher leagues until they all inevitably fold or drop down. S4S look at it this way for Brough £1400 + VAT (don't forget the VAT) (cough cough) to rent the Stadium; Medical Cover £600; Referee £150/£200; Trackman £250; Rider and Club Insurance a tyre and other sundry items and BSPL fees payable and that's just the start of it. But using those basic figures you have spent your £2500 before you have turned a wheel and paid any points money out; furthermore you are being ambitious with 300 fans as there was around 150 who stopped back to watch the NDL meetings after the main event at Newcastle; but if we give you the benefit of the doubt and say that they do get 300 in to watch at a tenner a head you are flying by the seat of your pants again at £3000 before you even start. So the promoter says if you want Speedway you are going to have to ether come and watch in larger numbers because where have all the Speedway fans gone or I am going to have to increase the entry fee. (Sound familiar?) so then as @mikebv stated earlier you up you entry to 15 quid but 50 people decide that they aren't going to pay that so its a rat race to blowing your brains out. Also I sponsored a couple of NDL lads this year and both are stating that due to machinery and travel costs they are going to quit next year unless they get something like 20 quid point because they can not afford it and then none of this adds up... Hopefully that explains the figures and why running an NDL team at Newcastle is fraught with risk... I accept your premise and don't fundamentally disagree with it however no matter what you do the numbers need to stack up... Regards THJ 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,273 Posted August 6, 2021 (edited) 43 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Although we normally sing off the same hymn sheet Mike there is a lot of what you have put above I don't agree with. First off there is nothing "Top Tier" about British Speedway these days and we need to drop the terms Elite and Premier as this is marketing under false pretences there is nothing Elite about the product. Poland and Brexit have seen to that and if the Poles decide to make all their riders ride in just one league that will be a few more less for selection... The NDL was a joke as it was treat like a top league by promoters with riders on £800 guarantees and deciding not to ride in other leagues but choose the easy option of sitting in the NDL... Promoters are their own worst enemies as they try and operate like football clubs but for every Man City who can afford a Jack Grealish at 100 million quid and on a couple of hundred grand a week salary there are thousands of other clubs that can only dream of such ambition. Football at the top levels oare supported by billions of pounds of high paying revenue sources Speedway doesn't have two pennies to rub together. Promoters are the issue here there is no one else to blame as it those guys who cant get their act together and they don't like hearing that either. There is a race for all the top riders to be seen to smash all other teams and win everything and its only money that does that; which is back to the football scenario however football has the world to choose from and the Premiership here is where every one wants to play however in Speedway the roles are reversed as its Poland who have all the cash and it is Poland where all the riders aspire to be. That in now and wont change any time soon. There aren't Nine or Ten 'Elite' teams in the country to run a flagship top league as the riders we have available are only second strings in Poland at best and it is going to be harder to be a Professional in this country because the wages aren't sustainable to provide full time professionals with work. Gone are the days when guys like the Owen Brothers took all before them in the second tier and when the went up a league struggled at 6 and 7 initially in a team resplendent in international riders. The Sport moved on unfortunately the UK did not follow suit. I was told off a BSPL committee member that if the riders didn't ride in two leagues in this country they would qit because they could not make it pay!!! well let them quit and get a job because Speedway is no longer a full time Professional Sport in the UK Poland and Brexit have seen to that and the way the sport in governed with the tail invariable wagging the dog... I agree that something needs done and there does need to be more teams in League 1 than there are in League 2 and this ridiculous curry star rating system and other manufactured ways of trying to manipulate the riders for team building needs to stop... there needs to be a fundamental sea change in the sport both in attitude and in delivery of the product... Surely following this year we will see something radical happening. Finally you don't have 14 full time professional riders to pay from a crowd of 600, you have 7 home riders to pay for and then hope you make enough from your 600 punters to cover your own 7 riders for the corresponding away meeting. If there was ever a time for 6 man teams and electric bikes its now and on your last point someone in Speedway has said "enough is enough" and that is "The Fans" at many clubs. I wanted to expand this further but being at graft and busy I am struggling for time and there is another point I want to pick up on Regards THJ My point about 'Elite' John is that every sport needs a "flagship". To aspire too if nothing else. But to be the standard bearer in the main.. Personally for me it would be five men per team and all over at least a 4.5 average (and maybe higher if enough riders).. Definitely not "Elite" in the context of Speedway, but certainly the "Elite" we have to offer over here... And the starting point is that hardly anyone knows who Tai Woffinden is so Bomber Harris being a No1 wont be given a second glance by those who dont watch the sport now. And those who do, already see him ride there.. When I say 7 professionals to pay you do need to find 60 races worth of money to pay them from your home meetings income, with your reply it suggests it's a bit "hit and hope" if they get paid the away match..? Is that the case usually? The sport with DU and guests galore is 100% set up for the riders. And nothing more. I think most fans know this. However tough talking is needed on both sides of the fence. If tracks disappear then so do team places and let's be honest, not many Swedish and Polish top tier teams are beating down a door to many of the lads who ride over here are they? Your comments re the old NDL payments are interesting in that I feel it underlines the fundamental issue facing the sport and that is Promoters take their leagues far too seriously in comparison to how even the actual die hard fans see it.. Hardly anyone cares who wins a Speedway League in the UK yet it seems Promoters see it as some kind of major achievement... Maybe they need to get a dose of reality and realise that so many fans just want to see four lads of reasonably equal ability racing against each other.. When some fans would rather stay in and watch a GP than attend "their teams" meeting on the same night, it says everything about how they see the sport.. I would suggest that there are now more 'fans of the sport' than 'fans of the clubs'.... Edited August 6, 2021 by mikebv 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TotallyHonestJohn 3,078 Posted August 6, 2021 28 minutes ago, iainb said: I hope you've given that finger of yours a good rest overnight and I know we can keep this to and fro jousting up without being disrespectful or hostile... But I'm not stirring it at all, I am in fact semi serious. Now we both know clubs are not going to get £300m each but from what RobGod was saying money is available to be applied for. I'm not going to use the word promoter but club owner, if you're a club owner at the moment there is no way out, even Matt Ford can't offload the Manchester United of Speedway, the only option he's got is to make the best out of a bad job and run his club according to the crowds he gets. At the start of the season you had the madness of clubs opening up under Covid crowd restrictions that they should have knew damn well they couldn't sustain... and out came the begging bowl for some of them. If you can't sell your club and you can't make it pay on the crowds you are getting (for whatever reason) and there appears to be no plan to MSGA (Make Speedway Great Again) then you either close... or seek a coronavirus loan, if the government are stupid enough to loan money to failing businesses in a failing sport they can't really expect to get their money back and I can't see how the directors would be personally liable for that loan. There will be businesses out there (not Speedway) that will be taking Corona loans, paying themselves a big fat salary, paying back director loans etc. and syphoning money out of their businesses, that's up to them and it's not what I'm suggesting Speedway should do. When I say let the administrators run the sport after it's all gone bankrupt, well my tongue is half in my cheek when I say that as really it's what's needed to get the sport back on the straight and narrow. So the choices are close (losing your money), make it pay (which most clubs can't) or take the loan and worry about it later Fingers well rested and on the lap top in the office now but I need to get some work done... and as much as I enjoy your sparkling wit and repartee one always tries not to be disrespectful or hostile however there are times when one does get annoyed when the message doesn't seem to be getting through however one is working on that with help from several vintners... Now if people were getting £300m in loans I may be tempted to take up your suggestion and become an ex-pat on a beach in the Bahamas and fight deportation all the way... However you are proposing something then suggesting that speedway should not do it; so contradicting your self; so can I suggest to you saying as it is Friday start thinking more about Corona Larger and less about Corona Loans and you will find your blood pressure will soon be returning back to normal... Finally mentioning verbal jousting and "Sparkling Witt and Repartee" a friend of mine went to a school to learn the art of sparkling wit and repartee and I will leave you with what he said to a circus clown who gave him grief for many a year... !!! Hmmm although on second thoughts being a good boy I will save that for another day however @BykerBiker may share the punch line with you... Keep a had... Regards THJ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arnieg 3,643 Posted August 6, 2021 35 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: S4S look at it this way for Brough £1400 + VAT (don't forget the VAT) (cough cough) Unless Newcastle speedway is not VAT registered then you can forget the VAT as it is fully reclaimable input VAT i.e. the cost to the business is Nada, Nothing, Zero. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TotallyHonestJohn 3,078 Posted August 6, 2021 10 minutes ago, mikebv said: When I say 7 professionals to pay you do need to find 60 races worth of money to pay them from your home meetings income, with your reply it suggests it's a bit "hit and hope" if they get paid the away match..? Is that the case usually? This is the issue Mike and its why it hurts so much.... What sport in the world penalises a successful team like speedway; Worky was built in 2018 to win their home matches and get 35 points away from home... they never in their wildest dreams expected to go to Glasgow and Newcastle and score 50 points plus... the home crowd has to pay for the away meeting and 380 on a Saturday night watching Scunthorpe then going to Scunny and getting 50 points down their meant a hit of somewhere around 6 grand... the expectation levels are far to high and the model isn't working IMHO 10 minutes ago, mikebv said: Hardly anyone cares who wins a Speedway League in the UK yet it seems Promoters see it as some kind of major achievement... Never a truer word said. 11 minutes ago, mikebv said: When some fans would rather stay in and watch a GP than attend "their teams" meeting on the same night, it says everything about how they see the sport.. Err never a truer word said since the last one 11 minutes ago, mikebv said: I would suggest that there are now more 'fans of the sport' than 'fans of the clubs'.... Oh and how true is this statement; couple of years back three of us watching a GP in the Golden Lion in Maryport; just before the semi final run off someone turned the TV over to look at some racing results and there was nearly a riot in the Bar... get that back on we were watching that and there was around 45 in the Bar and I said to them "if you like it that much why don't you get to Derwent Park to watch your local team" to much like hard work; to cold; to expensive; to far away; to many excuses and they all said they loved the sport but would rather sit and watch it on TV and no one was brave enough to ask for it to be put on the TV in the bar... Nuts totally Nuts... Regards THJ Must go sorry... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TotallyHonestJohn 3,078 Posted August 6, 2021 1 minute ago, arnieg said: Unless Newcastle speedway is not VAT registered then you can forget the VAT as it is fully reclaimable input VAT i.e. the cost to the business is Nada, Nothing, Zero. Obviously you are not up to date with the situation Arnie... please keep up before you jump in... many thanks... Regards THJ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arnieg 3,643 Posted August 6, 2021 3 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Obviously you are not up to date with the situation Arnie... please keep up before you jump in... many thanks... Regards THJ What am I missing? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
szkocjasid 3,026 Posted August 6, 2021 20 hours ago, cityrebel said: How can the promoters sell a product that has no chance of paying it's way. If you can only attract 500 punters, then cut your cloth accordingly. The second tier is too strong and too expensive. The NDL should be run exclusively as a second half event to develop young riders. I don't know how some clubs can cover the cost of running two teams. Totally agree with your first point, if the fans don't turn up in large numbers clubs need to be sensible with wages! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nmagee72 5 Posted August 6, 2021 i may be a mile off here but reading the above... happy to hear thoughts from how this could work as a very basic model or cost plan for running speedway ? i guessing currently riders are on way more than £30/point though more like nearer £100 !! but is that the problem ? .... Income: £12(avg cost) x 500 = £6000 Costs (as above) = £2500 Riders = £3500 or / 2 = £1750 per meeting £1750 / 45 (avg points per meeting) = £38/point .... so riders can not be paid more than around £30/point to allow for other costs. (plus any sponsorship). this may sound low, but a good heat leader can still earn up to £500/meeting, something which most motor cross riders, stock car drivers (who are just a professionally turned out and take the same risks etc) could only dream of earning !! as above, sorry riders cannot expect to be professional any more solely relying on speedway for income but the riders must also be given a way to cut their own costs, with rule changes to enforce cheaper running costs, they are paying a fortune for equipment at present, that clearly no-one can actually afford ? ... level to run at must be below the current "championship" and more like the "old" national league of the 70's/80's i think there are enough supporters at the tracks who would pay £12/15 to watch such a league standard, if the league is ran well, eventually more will be interested also ? eg a Newcastle team of something like Wethers/Clegg/Wright/Roynon/Phillips/Embleton/Freeman 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pablo133 49 Posted August 6, 2021 The bottom line for me is that the riders are paid more money than the clubs can afford going on the crowd size, the league needs to change to standard engines and riders treat it as a hobby that pays a lower rate, I've heard about top riders in the league getting paid guaranteed £1,500 plus per meeting , this has to stop and reserves getting £50 a point, no wonder the clubs are struggling. THJ might have more info on the wage structure than me? 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
