Dudleywood4eva 15 Posted January 1, 2014 (edited) You are quite right - for someone who was so good individually he was an excellent team man and like you say he made them better for being with him. I used to love going to Cowley and Dudley Wood in anticipation of Nielsen vs Gundersen and it didnt disapppoint. I have to say that i recall Hans often getting the better of Erik - i wouldnt mind seeing what their head to head was over the years. Erik used to get himself into breathtaking form in the weeks until the world finals. Both superb riders and a great rivalry. So sad that both tracks r now gone :-( Edited January 1, 2014 by Dudleywood 4eva Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted January 1, 2014 You are quite right - for someone who was so good individually he was an excellent team man and like you say he made them better for being with him. I used to love going to Cowley and Dudley Wood in anticipation of Nielsen vs Gundersen and it didnt disapppoint. I have to say that i recall Hans often getting the better of Erik - i wouldnt mind seeing what their head to head was over the years. Erik used to get himself into breathtaking form in the weeks until the world finals. Both superb riders and a great rivalry. So sad that both tracks r now gone :-(Loved Cradley i thought it looked very difficult to ride for visiting riders but it was a fine racing track.The Collins/Grahame partnership was awesome Alan in my opinion was one of the most underrated rider ever he had a proper racing brain he could be tough as well.My last visit i think to Dudley was a real tanking for Swindon(i think they scored 21 pts?). and Belle Vue (19 pts?in a double header that Cradley side was in the top 3 club sides i ever saw. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dudleywood4eva 15 Posted January 1, 2014 Collins and grahame were great together especially around Cradley. Al used to protect the inside while Phil used the outside. Big al was a great team man and very much an unsung hero - often scored 5 or 6 but had 2 or 3 bonus points to his name. Dont remember those particular matches but they were a great side in the 80's Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,362 Posted January 2, 2014 .By the way Grachan how did Nielsen come up short? I feel he came short because, for many years, just on riding ability alone Hans Nielsen was totally in a class of his own in the British League. There was nobody who came close. When you rode against Oxford it was like winning the match if anyone in your side managed to beat him. A rider of his ability should have won about 10 world titles and could have been the undisputed greatest of all time, but in world Finals he often over rode and made errors - including when he won it Poland and should have been excluded in one race for bringing off Tommy Knudsen. So on World Titles alone I feel he under achieved, but as a league rider he was possibly the greatest of all time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted January 2, 2014 I feel he came short because, for many years, just on riding ability alone Hans Nielsen was totally in a class of his own in the British League. There was nobody who came close. When you rode against Oxford it was like winning the match if anyone in your side managed to beat him. A rider of his ability should have won about 10 world titles and could have been the undisputed greatest of all time, but in world Finals he often over rode and made errors - including when he won it Poland and should have been excluded in one race for bringing off Tommy Knudsen. So on World Titles alone I feel he under achieved, but as a league rider he was possibly the greatest of all time. Good points Grachan and maybe Nielsen himself feels he underachieved on the individual front.I don't think so, for me Olsen was a better rider but only won three titles but the point you made about Nielsen overriding at times is so true.The race against Knudsen he was so lucky and i can remember the Bradford final when he was looking for Erik he made a mistake there.Also i think at Gothenburg he made a mistake there? and Kelly Moran crept through and beat him saying that 4 titles is pretty good and Erik was an outstanding rider and rival at the same time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,109 Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Top 8 of all time? Impossible...but here goes: Vic Huxley, Tom Farndon, Vic Duggan, Jack Young, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Ivan Mauger, Tony Rickardsson.... Or alternatively: Frank Arthur, Bluey Wilkinson, Jack Parker, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Bjorn Knutson, Ole Olsen, Hans Nielsen Or alternatively: Eric Langton, Cordy Milne, Lionel Van Praag, Jack Milne, Peter Collins, Erik Gundersen, Bruce Penhall, Jason Crump..... Edited January 8, 2014 by norbold 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted January 8, 2014 Top 8 of all time? Impossible...but here goes: Vic Huxley, Tom Farndon, Vic Duggan, Jack Young, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Ivan Mauger, Tony Rickardsson.... Or alternatively: Frank Arthur, Bluey Wilkinson, Jack Parker, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Bjorn Knutson, Ole Olsen, Hans Nielsen Or alternatively: Eric Langton, Cordy Milne, Lionel Van Praag, Jack Milne, Peter Collins, Erik Gundersen, Bruce Penhall, Jason Crump..... I couldn't disagree with any of them Norbold. You forgot Max Grosskreutz. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) I couldn't disagree with any of them Norbold. You forgot Max Grosskreutz. You may like to see the back page photo of the renowned Max Grosskreutz - who I saw ride for Bradford and Australia in 1947 - who is featured on the back page of this forum-magazine. oldtmespeedway journal, Vol 2, No.1 January 2014 https://app.box.com/...xfyg27gk7vnbeug Edited January 8, 2014 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted January 8, 2014 I couldn't disagree with any of them Norbold. You forgot Max Grosskreutz.Were some of those named better WK in your opinion!! than Freddie Williams? is Freddie an unsung hero.? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Were some of those named better WK in your opinion!! than Freddie Williams? is Freddie an unsung hero.? This subject will never really be resolved. So many other great names need to come into the long-time reckoning - as already mentioned by The White Knight there's Max Groskreutz (Australia). Others would include Wilbur Lamoreaux (USA), Ron Johnson (Australia), Eric Chitty and Jimmy Gibb (both of Canada), Rune Sormander (Sweden). This is a wonderful topic to debate and conjecture as to who should be included. And yes, Freddie Williams (Wales) is another very deserving candidate. Edited January 8, 2014 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted January 8, 2014 Were some of those named better WK in your opinion!! than Freddie Williams? is Freddie an unsung hero.? Freddie Williams deserves to be in there too sidney. One of my Heroes who I had the privilege to actually meet. A true Gentleman too - in the truest sense of the word. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,109 Posted January 9, 2014 I couldn't disagree with any of them Norbold. You forgot Max Grosskreutz. Were some of those named better WK in your opinion!! than Freddie Williams? is Freddie an unsung hero.? You're both right of course. Here's another eight then...: Max Grosskreutz, Aub Lawson, Split Waterman, Tommy Price, Freddie Williams, Anders Michanek, Nicky Pedersen, Tomasz Gollob..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucifer sam 3,953 Posted January 17, 2014 It's difficult when I have't seen some of them but: Ove Fundin Hans Nielsen Ivan Mauger Bruce Penhall Erik Gundersen Peter Craven Barry Briggs Vic Duggan All the best Rob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AD1974 3 Posted January 17, 2014 As a proper statto type with an interest in history I love this sort of discussion. No real answer to it - hard to disagree with pretty much every name that's been mentioned so far. I have done a bit of analysis based on world final appearances which gives a top 8 as below - I can explain how I've done it should anybody be interested but it's a bit boring to be honest! Suffice to say it's a solid enough way of looking at it (in my opinion) but if you look at things a different way you tend to get different answers when you boil it all down to pure numbers so I would never claim this answer is better than any other! 1. Ivan Mauger 2. Ove Fundin 3. Hans Nielsen 4. Tony Rickardsson 5. Barry Briggs 6. Nicki Pedersen 7. Ronnie Moore 8. Jason Crump Should anybody be wondering where any other riders are on the list give me a shout and I'll put it on but don't forget it's based solely on world final performances and obviously there is much more to what really makes a rider the best in the world in any one season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted January 17, 2014 As a proper statto type with an interest in history I love this sort of discussion. No real answer to it - hard to disagree with pretty much every name that's been mentioned so far. I have done a bit of analysis based on world final appearances which gives a top 8 as below - I can explain how I've done it should anybody be interested but it's a bit boring to be honest! Suffice to say it's a solid enough way of looking at it (in my opinion) but if you look at things a different way you tend to get different answers when you boil it all down to pure numbers so I would never claim this answer is better than any other! 1. Ivan Mauger 2. Ove Fundin 3. Hans Nielsen 4. Tony Rickardsson 5. Barry Briggs 6. Nicki Pedersen 7. Ronnie Moore 8. Jason Crump Should anybody be wondering where any other riders are on the list give me a shout and I'll put it on but don't forget it's based solely on world final performances and obviously there is much more to what really makes a rider the best in the world in any one season. Where is Freddie Williams? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
