SCB 0 Posted August 4, 2014 I agree Speedway is in a mess, which is why I liked your Post. It just seems to me that the Elite League is in a bigger mess than the Premier League. You are watching NATIONAL League Racing for, at least part of your Meetings. Doubling Up Riders are getting out of hand and yet Elite League Clubs are fielding Premier League/National League Riders at Elite League Prices. THAT to me is not a recipe for success. In fact, it is, in a way, ripping off the Supporters who turn up each week. At least in the Premier League - when I go to watch my Team - I, by and large, get to see my Team and not a hotch potch of Riders riding to make the numbers up. You will probably disagree with this and that is your prerogative. Again, I'm, not claiming the EL is great but as I see it, the EL costs about £1 more than the PL, sometimes £2 but for that I do see a handful of better riders. And while I do see "NL riders" they dont race the top guys. The splitting of riders means you actually 15 evenly matched heats (unless one team is poor but you'll never fix that). You're right that for 2 heats in the EL you see "NL riders" but how is that any difference to heats 2 and 8 of a PL meeting? As for "hotch potch of riders" thats no different to any league. I believe you support Newcastle correct? Well the two Lewis' have missed Newcastle meeting as they were riding for Kings Lynn. What the difference between that and Coventry missing Garrity riding for Rye House? I say it again, both leagues have the same issues - and doubling up being out of hand is one of them! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted August 4, 2014 Again, I'm, not claiming the EL is great but as I see it, the EL costs about £1 more than the PL, sometimes £2 but for that I do see a handful of better riders. And while I do see "NL riders" they dont race the top guys. The splitting of riders means you actually 15 evenly matched heats (unless one team is poor but you'll never fix that). You're right that for 2 heats in the EL you see "NL riders" but how is that any difference to heats 2 and 8 of a PL meeting? As for "hotch potch of riders" thats no different to any league. I believe you support Newcastle correct? Well the two Lewis' have missed Newcastle meeting as they were riding for Kings Lynn. What the difference between that and Coventry missing Garrity riding for Rye House? I say it again, both leagues have the same issues - and doubling up being out of hand is one of them! I was thinking particularly of Swindon last Season. If I remember rightly wasn't there only TWO or possibly THREE Swindon Riders riding for them. Four 'Guests' and R/R I think - I stand to be corrected as I am working from memory here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigcatdiary 3,165 Posted August 4, 2014 Both Tony Mole and Drury have said Birmingham in the EL was viable and amazingly - Profitable! (when they were in charge). Yeah of course it was, presumably that's why Mole let Patchett run it for a season (at a loss at PL level) and why Philips and Luty lost the best part of 400k. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
uk_martin 1,606 Posted August 4, 2014 Both Tony Mole and Drury have said Birmingham in the EL was viable and amazingly - Profitable! (when they were in charge)... Why was Mole so keen to dispose of a profit maker? Why did Patch & Bratters not complete their purchase of the club if it was so profitable? Will Mole ever release the audited accounts to b back up his claim? All sounds like twisting of the knife lodged in Philips' back if you ask me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,615 Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) What league were Oxford in? Have Reading been forgotten? When there are rungs on the ladder below you then you can step down to a lower rung instead of jumping off. Eastbourne and Peterborough spring to mind. In fact, you could argue that Frost closed Peterborough as an EL team and it took intervention from the present owners to bring it back to life in the PL How are Boro getting on in the Pl ? begging for fans and people on here saying that riders not been paid all season ? How did Brum get on last time in the Pl ? lost a shed load of money and had to saved . Berwick and Edinburgh and Glasgow have also been near the brink of going under in the last few years . This dumb mind set the El has massive problems while the Pl is great is a massive myth . Speedway has the same problem at every level not enough fans Edited August 4, 2014 by orion 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebrum 6,823 Posted August 4, 2014 I agree Speedway is in a mess. It just seems to me that the Elite League is in a bigger mess than the Premier League. You are watching NATIONAL League Racing for, at least part of your Meetings. You fail to mention we are still watching some of the World best riders, including our World Champion. There are just 2 heats of NL/PL standard racing. Which provides plenty of entertainment. At least the EL is trying to do something the PL cares nothing about - ie providing a structure for these newcomers to move thru. The PL employs some of them but not in any structured way. You could say the PL is the problem as they appear stubborn to allow any change or working with any other league. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BeoBrummie 30 Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) Why was Mole so keen to dispose of a profit maker? Why did Patch & Bratters not complete their purchase of the club if it was so profitable? Will Mole ever release the audited accounts to b back up his claim? All sounds like twisting of the knife lodged in Philips' back if you ask me. 1 - That's what Tony Mole does - reboots a club and sells it on. 2 - The bloke wanted to retire (forget that now) Alan Phillips is a businessman and an accountant to boot, are you seriously suggesting that he didn't go over the Brummies books with a fine tooth comb before buying the club? or are you saying Tony Mole is a liar who cooks the books just to make a sale? - I know who I believe and it aint your former employer! As for Patchett well just shows you that the Premier League is not the land of milk and honey that those on here make it out to be! Edited August 4, 2014 by BeoBrummie 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Leicester Hunter 381 Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) Alan Phillips is a businessman and an accountant to boot, are you seriously suggesting that he didn't go over the Brummies books with a fine tooth comb before buying the club? That's very true, but whether he went over the books or not is now irrelevant. He's a fan (so he says), and that could have clouded any objective decisions he made. But as david2905 has correctly pointed out earlier in this thread, Phillips would have wrecked the club anyway, no matter which league we were in, simply because he was totally out of his depth and had got rid of anyone and everyone who knew anything about running a speedway club. I suppose the moral of this sad tale is this: If you're a fan, don't even think about purchasing a speedway club and running one. It's not a hobby, it's a full blown business, and one for the long haul too. Think with your head, not your heart. We've all seen too many people leave the sport with absolutely nothing at all after they've failed, although in this case, I'm certain that hasn't happened. Edited August 4, 2014 by Leicester Hunter 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted August 4, 2014 1 - That's what Tony Mole does - reboots a club and sells it on. 2 - The bloke wanted to retire (forget that now) Alan Phillips is a businessman and an accountant to boot, are you seriously suggesting that he didn't go over the Brummies books with a fine tooth comb before buying the club? or are you saying Tony Mole is a liar who cooks the books just to make a sale? - I know who I believe and it aint your former employer! As for Patchett well just shows you that the Premier League is not the land of milk and honey that some on here make it out to be! Correct - it isn't. I haven't claimed that it is. What I have claimed is that the Elite Leagues problems are greater than those of the Premier League because of their Product. Only half a dozen top Riders, if that, NINE Teams only. Granted you can see the World Champion - but - how much does he, Ward etc. actually cost? I have no idea, by the way, but it wont be peanuts. The Elite League is living beyond it's means - or at least that is the impression I have. Plenty of problems in the other Leagues too, as orion says. The problems are there, but, they are not as great. That is all I am saying. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
uk_martin 1,606 Posted August 5, 2014 ...He's a fan (so he says), and that could have clouded any objective ... ...don't even think about purchasing a speedway club and running one. It's not a hobby, it's a full blown business... Your first point is probably right. Your second point I think is more complicated. I think speedway is for those businessmen who are making money in other ventures who need to "lose it" before the taxman gets hold of it. Almost sounds like money laundering except this money doesn't come out clean it just legitimately goes down the drain. Unlike Duggard whose been playing this game much more skilfully for much longer (remember him saying about Eastbourne losing £40,000 in 2007) I think Philips messed up how much he had to get rid of with how much would get sucked out of him. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsc1 31 Posted August 5, 2014 Your first point is probably right. Your second point I think is more complicated. I think speedway is for those businessmen who are making money in other ventures who need to "lose it" before the taxman gets hold of it. Almost sounds like money laundering except this money doesn't come out clean it just legitimately goes down the drain. Unlike Duggard whose been playing this game much more skilfully for much longer (remember him saying about Eastbourne losing £40,000 in 2007) I think Philips messed up how much he had to get rid of with how much would get sucked out of him. when in PL brummies made money that's a fact TM only put them EL when they was given money to move up with kings Lynn. As for pachett well don't go there what a total w...ker where is he now? Can't even run a club now...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,615 Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) when in PL brummies made money that's a fact TM only put them EL when they was given money to move up with kings Lynn. As for pachett well don't go there what a total w...ker where is he now? Can't even run a club now...... Last time I heard he was at Cradley . Correct - it isn't. I haven't claimed that it is. What I have claimed is that the Elite Leagues problems are greater than those of the Premier League because of their Product. Only half a dozen top Riders, if that, NINE Teams only. Granted you can see the World Champion - but - how much does he, Ward etc. actually cost? I have no idea, by the way, but it wont be peanuts. The Elite League is living beyond it's means - or at least that is the impression I have. Plenty of problems in the other Leagues too, as orion says. The problems are there, but, they are not as great. That is all I am saying. Poole due to how is run can well afford to have Ward in there side . Just as many Pl means run beyond there means by having rides they can't afford . it's about can you afford them not how much you pay them .As I said already people have said that Boro have not paid any riders this year . Clubs going bust have nearly having to do with what league there in or what the product is like . nearly every club that go's under for money reasons have been run poorly for example Phillips would have busted the club no matter what league they were in . Edited August 5, 2014 by orion Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skidder1 7,637 Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) Last time I heard he was at Cradley . Poole due to how is run can well afford to have Ward in there side . Just as many Pl means run beyond there means by having rides they can't afford . it's about can you afford them not how much you pay them .As I said already people have said that Boro have not paid any riders this year . Clubs going bust have nearly having to do with what league there in or what the product is like . nearly every club that go's under for money reasons have been run poorly for example Phillips would have busted the club no matter what league they were in . As I've mentioned before on other threads, Poole (MF) and Wolves (CVS) both proposed a reduction in EL admission charges, due to the intro of the FT rider scheme - BUT the PL promoters were aghast at any such suggestion,as 'it would put many PL clubs out of business' if they had to follow suit. So it was outvoted at the AGM. This might mean that most PL clubs are running very close to the wind in remaining solvent - and that at least Poole and Wolves have a business plan for their clubs which works for them, but possibly not for other EL clubs?! Lakeside also appear to have a business plan that works for them without (and no disrespect here) having any of the 'top' riders, but they run what they can afford. This is what makes it difficult (nigh impossible) for a 'blueprint' for the EL that suits every club, because every club will/should have a business plan that suits their local circumstances. If, for example, Poole want to run with Darcy Ward because he attracts better sponsorship and bums on seats then why should that not be permissible? Similarly, if other clubs want to work to a different financial plan that works for them then why not?! Incidentally 'works for them' means at least being able to compete on track and have decent attendances. Edited August 5, 2014 by Skidder1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
david2905 230 Posted August 5, 2014 Yeah of course it was, presumably that's why Mole let Patchett run it for a season (at a loss at PL level) and why Philips and Luty lost the best part of 400k. Tony Mole never stays in charge of any club long term so that's far from unique to Birmingham (I seem to recall Patchett not liking how the figures looked in the PL, which backs up the theory that the EL wasn't the problem). I can't speak for Chris Luty as he largely stayed out of the spotlight, but his business partner can certainly shoulder plenty of the blame for any 400k loss, alienating plenty of your income from supporters and sponsors alike. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCB 0 Posted August 5, 2014 How do you lose 400k in 2 seasons? I just can't work out the maths. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
