Are They Really Saving Money?

[marko 956]

Something which has been on my mind for a few weeks now is the issue of the Elite League's viability.

 

This is my case, Peter Karlsson was dropped from Lakeside because of financial reasons! not because he was not scoring any points!

I could understand the latter but a rider who does not score points surely is not costing the club more money, Unless they are being paid huge amounts of start money!

 

Woffy is struggling, riders like Batchelor have had a few meetings where they don't really seem interested and only score three or four points, Bomber last night guests at Leicester knowing full well if he don't gate his earning power will be heavily restricted, he scores two points and on paper probably came away with barely enough to cover his costs.

With the new format i would be expecting some riders to be complaining about how they can't earn enough money whilst their second string team mates are raking it in, but we have not heard anything.

 

The top riders are entitled to good pay but if the sport is now paying them huge amounts of start money so it no longer matters if they don't score on the track we are in even more deep stuff than we thought.

 

Am i putting 2 and 2 together and making 5? you tell me?

[Paulco 7,145]

Something which has been on my mind for a few weeks now is the issue of the Elite League's viability.

 

This is my case, Peter Karlsson was dropped from Lakeside because of financial reasons! not because he was not scoring any points!

I could understand the latter but a rider who does not score points surely is not costing the club more money, Unless they are being paid huge amounts of start money!

 

Woffy is struggling, riders like Batchelor have had a few meetings where they don't really seem interested and only score three or four points, Bomber last night guests at Leicester knowing full well if he don't gate his earning power will be heavily restricted, he scores two points and on paper probably came away with barely enough to cover his costs.

With the new format i would be expecting some riders to be complaining about how they can't earn enough money whilst their second string team mates are raking it in, but we have not heard anything.

 

The top riders are entitled to good pay but if the sport is now paying them huge amounts of start money so it no longer matters if they don't score on the track we are in even more deep stuff than we thought.

 

Am i putting 2 and 2 together and making 5? you tell me?

I'm sure there is payments up front to some of the top riders , and whether that affects their motivation to put it all in, in every meeting, is debatable . As for Karlsson , watching him on Monday at the televised meeting , i think with him it's more a case of old Father Time catching up with him .

Edited August 10, 2014 by Paulco

[Big Al 710]

PK being stalked by a giant herb?? Not surprised he's a bit distracted

 

Seriously though....riders being shipped off for financial reasons is probably nothing new.

Not entirely sure - but had the impression that Karlsson had a tendency to tail-off in his scoring towards the end of matches during the first part half of the season and there could be all kinds of possible causes for that, including the dreaded father thyme. You have to think of the accumulation of effects from injuries taking toll especially if you compare him with another well-known 44 year-old. Three wins on the bounce last night showed there's still life in the old dog though!

 

But I am curious at some performances by a number of riders of late, and wonder what's behind it. Priorities elsewhere, match format, pay structure, average reduction. On the reverse side of the coin you have Klindt, who is seemingly struggling a bit to justify his no.1 jacket at Scunthorpe, but is beating so-called top EL riders both home and away for Leicester and has qualified for the GP challenge final. How do you explain that one? Are the two themes linked?

[Paulco 7,145]

PK being stalked by a giant herb?? Not surprised he's a bit distracted

 

Seriously though....riders being shipped off for financial reasons is probably nothing new.

Not entirely sure - but had the impression that Karlsson had a tendency to tail-off in his scoring towards the end of matches during the first part half of the season and there could be all kinds of possible causes for that, including the dreaded father thyme. You have to think of the accumulation of effects from injuries taking toll especially if you compare him with another well-known 44 year-old. Three wins on the bounce last night showed there's still life in the old dog though!

 

But I am curious at some performances by a number of riders of late, and wonder what's behind it. Priorities elsewhere, match format, pay structure, average reduction. On the reverse side of the coin you have Klindt, who is seemingly struggling a bit to justify his no.1 jacket at Scunthorpe, but is beating so-called top EL riders both home and away for Leicester and has qualified for the GP challenge final. How do you explain that one? Are the two themes linked?

The other well known 44 year old seems to be immortal and the ageing process has no effect on him . So you cant really compare anyone with him

As for your point about Klindt , it seems to be a Danish thing - Henning Bager seemed to score as much in the EL as he did in the PL

Edited August 10, 2014 by Paulco

[van wolfswinkel 635]

Riders such as Peter the Killer have higher paying priorities elsewhere, and according to one of his sponsors at Swindon tiredness takes over affecting his UK performances.

If I was earning 10 times more in Poland I would save my best for that, and not risk my neck on a poor, bumpy Swindon track!

Edited August 10, 2014 by keef van cross

[Skidder1 7,662]

Riders such as Peter the Killer have higher paying priorities elsewhere, and according to one of his sponsors at Swindon tiredness takes over affecting his UK performances.

If I was earning 10 times more in Poland I would save my best for that, and not risk my neck on a poor, bumpy Swindon track!

Very true - but in that case he shouldn't have commited to EL racing! Not having a go at Killer- any of the 'top' riders fall into a similar bracket!!

[Star Lady 5,400]

Do British clubs pay the air fares of foreign riders? If so that obviously adds to the costs whether they score or not.

Related to that do Polish/Swedish/Danish clubs pay the air fares of British riders that ride in their leagues?

[jimmy jimmy 298]

Do British clubs pay the air fares of foreign riders? If so that obviously adds to the costs whether they score or not.

Related to that do Polish/Swedish/Danish clubs pay the air fares of British riders that ride in their leagues?

Given the number of Uk riders racing abroad (tai, Scott, bomber), that won't be much

[Skidder1 7,662]

Given the number of Uk riders racing abroad (tai, Scott, bomber), that won't be much

Its not just UK riders, its the UK-based riders as well!!!

[E I Addio 15,861]

Something which has been on my mind for a few weeks now is the issue of the Elite League's viability.

 

This is my case, Peter Karlsson was dropped from Lakeside because of financial reasons! not because he was not scoring any points!

I could understand the latter but a rider who does not score points surely is not costing the club more money, Unless they are being paid huge amounts of start money!

 

Woffy is struggling, riders like Batchelor have had a few meetings where they don't really seem interested and only score three or four points, Bomber last night guests at Leicester knowing full well if he don't gate his earning power will be heavily restricted, he scores two points and on paper probably came away with barely enough to cover his costs.

With the new format i would be expecting some riders to be complaining about how they can't earn enough money whilst their second string team mates are raking it in, but we have not heard anything.

 

The top riders are entitled to good pay but if the sport is now paying them huge amounts of start money so it no longer matters if they don't score on the track we are in even more deep stuff than we thought.

 

Am i putting 2 and 2 together and making 5? you tell me?

 

 

It doesn't work like that. The actual pay structure varies from rider to rider and from club to club so there's no hard and fast rule but generally speaking they get a signing on fee upfront at the start of the season. Most don't get start money so last place pays zero. Top stars sometimes get a regular wage instead of points money. When Nickki Pedersen was at Peterboro a couple of years ago he was reported to be on £3,500 per meeting but probably only him and Rick Frost know what the true figure was. I did hear that Peter Karlsson was on a wage at Lakeside so you can see the problem when a top man is on a top wage but not top scoring points.

 

Riders who are on points money get different rates per point according to their role in the side. A top heatleader will be getting a lot more per point than a second string,

 

As to your point about Bomber, guest riders are usually on a guaranteed minimum then get paid for whatever they score above that, so your guest might be guaranteed the equivalent of say 8 or 9 points even if he only scores 2 or 3 but if he scores 15 he gets paid 15.

 

Then there are other variations, for example some riders get paid a higher rate but pay for there own mechanics others might be pad a lower rate but the club pay the mechanic. They need a new back tyre every meeting but some clubs pay for the tyres and some don't so there are all kinds of variations.

[marko 956]

And that is the big problem! next time you see a genuine heat leader have a poor meeting no one will truly know whether its just a bad night or whether the guy has turned up and simply could not be bothered to put himself out because he knows he will get paid a set amount anyway.

 

One thing which has always gone against the theory of average manipulation etc is the fact that if a rider does not score, he does not earn, this potentially blows that out of the water and next time a Davey Watt or a Bjarne Pedersen fails to do well against the Pirates it will just be more ammo for those like me who label those riders with the "Agent" tag

You can see this is open to so much abuse by riders and promoters and once again it will be the fans who suffer.

[orion 7,631]

And that is the big problem! next time you see a genuine heat leader have a poor meeting no one will truly know whether its just a bad night or whether the guy has turned up and simply could not be bothered to put himself out because he knows he will get paid a set amount anyway.

 

One thing which has always gone against the theory of average manipulation etc is the fact that if a rider does not score, he does not earn, this potentially blows that out of the water and next time a Davey Watt or a Bjarne Pedersen fails to do well against the Pirates it will just be more ammo for those like me who label those riders with the "Agent" tag

You can see this is open to so much abuse by riders and promoters and once again it will be the fans who suffer.

Not really as riders maybe get paid to ride badly from certain parties hence the agent tags ..they may even bet on themselves to score badly etc etc .

[E I Addio 15,861]

And that is the big problem! next time you see a genuine heat leader have a poor meeting no one will truly know whether its just a bad night or whether the guy has turned up and simply could not be bothered to put himself out because he knows he will get paid a set amount anyway.

 

One thing which has always gone against the theory of average manipulation etc is the fact that if a rider does not score, he does not earn, this potentially blows that out of the water and next time a Davey Watt or a Bjarne Pedersen fails to do well against the Pirates it will just be more ammo for those like me who label those riders with the "Agent" tag

You can see this is open to so much abuse by riders and promoters and once again it will be the fans who suffer.

 

You never quite know what to believe but FWIW I don't think its anywhere near as prevalent as people on here like to claim. The thing is its one thing to claim a rider is deliberately dropping his average but if he is a consistent performer on a variety of tracks he puts himself in a good position to negotiate a more lucrative deal next year. Also riders talk and promoters talk so if word gets round that a riders is a bit lazy or a disruptive influence in the team it gets harder for him to find work. So all in all I think a little of it goes on but not on a grand scale, although some may disagree. I have the Malcolm Simmons DVD and he talks very frankly about his career after he had retired so he had no reason to lie but one thing he did say is that it is very difficult for a rider to reduce his average without it being noticed.

[T.N.T. 355]

The draft riders were bought in to save money but as they were given easier heats then it meant the better riders had harder races and this has seen a few riders like Harris, Woffinden, Cook, Karlsson etc have some pretty average or poor meetings. While some second strings have actually scored more points due to a few easier races.

 

 

Next season you are going to have 2014 heat leaders like Woffinden and Karlsson on modest averages for 2015 while some may appear a gamble on high averages like Ricky Wells, Niklas Porsing etc ..... so how are you going to save money putting together a team like Woffinden, Karlsson, Pawlicki, Thorssell and Klindt when that team would have been well over the limit this season.

 

 

So they may have saved money this season but next year it's going to bite a few in the bum if the Elite League stays the same ...... which I can't see happening if they want to keep the likes of Ward, Woffinden and Iversen etc

[marko 956]

They may have saved money on one hand but if they are now having to supplement the highest earning riders of the team then it will be for nothing.

Once again i have no problem with any rider earning a living from speedway but once you go down the route of paying riders regardless of what they score that is a very dangerous road as they will want it the following seasons regardless of the format and use it as a bargaining tool, not too mention it will affect the racing as why should a rider put himself at anymore risk trying to get 1st when he will get paid anyway.

Riders should be paid to score, not paid to simply poodle around at the back then give up after three laps.

 

In defense of the top riders though i don't know if they are paid extra for tac rides, if they are not they should be, if you get six points you should be paid it, i am also an advocate of the old tac sub system which rewarded heat leaders for winning extra races, again no problem with that, it was money earned, if you score a hat full you deserve to be well paid.