Somerset And The Confederate Flag

[ruffdiamond 6,115]

Does anyone think that 'Robinsons' should be allowed to put the funny little man back on their jam ???

[Truro Robin 39]

You are talking nonsense. The Battle Flag itself is an emblem, it is representing a people who fought for the their Freedom, as they saw it, 150 years ago. An awful lot of people died for that Flag and it deserves respect for that alone whichever side of the Divide you are on, Black or White. What it has come to mean today is the problem. I agree that it should be banned, not because of the Flag itself but what that Flag has come to represent.

 

Much as Truro Robin likes to scoff at the idea - you are right, and no amount of scoffing will change that.

 

That doesn't make him wrong. (See above).

You are unbelievable!

 

"Fought for their freedom" to, amongst other things, retain slavery.

 

Do you really think that any people on the "Black" side of the "Divide" will have respect for it.

[Lord Skid 426]

The Golly on the Jamjar was rightly banned, but Farmers in Wales not being allowed to breed black sheep is ridiculous.

[Ray Stadia 1,071]

Does anyone think that 'Robinsons' should be allowed to put the funny little man back on their jam ???

No....but when I was a child and a teenager, I did not relate the Robinsons golly, golliwogs or the Black and White Minstrels with black people! In fact the Black and White Minstrels, surely, were a celebration of black musicians in the south. All that has happened, is a creation of resentment, which needn't have been the case. The banning of the flag will probably do the same thing. Crazy world!

[The White Knight 9,039]

You are unbelievable!

 

"Fought for their freedom" to, amongst other things, retain slavery.

 

Do you really think that any people on the "Black" side of the "Divide" will have respect for it.

NO!!

 

I will put this as simply as I can. The Confederates fought for the RIGHT of their States to secede from the Union - that is what I meant by Freedom. That is initially what the War was about. It took Lincoln's Emancipation Act to turn the Civil War in to an ante Slavery Crusade.

 

I agree that there will be very few, if any, Black people who will have any respect for the Battle Flag but you never know.

 

From a Historical perspective, though, that Battle Flag has as much American blood on it as any Union Flag. It is due respect.

[John Leslie 3,213]

Does anyone think that 'Robinsons' should be allowed to put the funny little man back on their jam ???

No. He'd look silly on a bottle of orange squash at Wimbledon. Be better on a jar of Robertson's jam.

[AlanF 295]

The Confederate flag is so ingrained in Southern history that it will, quite simply, never go away. Just about all white Southerners are in favor of the flag and just about all black Southerners are against the flag.

 

America is completely split on racial issues. If a black person suffers at the hands of a white person, the black population think it is racially motivated and the white people do not.

 

There have been many cases recently of unarmed black teenagers getting shot by white police officers. You can argue whether the killings were necessary, but in America opinion is split completely down the middle. The country has had recent mass protests and riots in major cities across the country and race relations are at an incredibly low level and the slightest provocation can trigger major problems. "Black lives matter" has been the rallying call for protesters.

 

Whatever you think of the origins of the flag, it is an extreme provocation. It is offensive to a large percentage of the American population and has no business being flown from government buildings. It will never be banned from private use, and neither should it. If a white Southerner is proud of their heritage then fine, just don't wave it in a black person's face and expect them to be happy about it. The Government belongs to the black peoples as much as it does the white people.

 

I still don't see how any of this affects Somerset. The Old Miss Rebels play in front of 80,000 people every game and most of their team are black.

[Truro Robin 39]

NO!!

 

I will put this as simply as I can. The Confederates fought for the RIGHT of their States to secede from the Union - that is what I meant by Freedom. That is initially what the War was about. It took Lincoln's Emancipation Act to turn the Civil War in to an ante Slavery Crusade.

 

I agree that there will be very few, if any, Black people who will have any respect for the Battle Flag but you never know.

 

From a Historical perspective, though, that Battle Flag has as much American blood on it as any Union Flag. It is due respect.

I thought we had already agreed that one of the reasons for their wanting to secede from the Union was due to the issue of slavery. This isn't an opinion but a fact.

 

Just out of interest, in your opinion, are all flags that have had blood shed over them in war due respect?

The Confederate flag is so ingrained in Southern history that it will, quite simply, never go away. Just about all white Southerners are in favor of the flag and just about all black Southerners are against the flag.

 

America is completely split on racial issues. If a black person suffers at the hands of a white person, the black population think it is racially motivated and the white people do not.

 

There have been many cases recently of unarmed black teenagers getting shot by white police officers. You can argue whether the killings were necessary, but in America opinion is split completely down the middle. The country has had recent mass protests and riots in major cities across the country and race relations are at an incredibly low level and the slightest provocation can trigger major problems. "Black lives matter" has been the rallying call for protesters.

 

Whatever you think of the origins of the flag, it is an extreme provocation. It is offensive to a large percentage of the American population and has no business being flown from government buildings. It will never be banned from private use, and neither should it. If a white Southerner is proud of their heritage then fine, just don't wave it in a black person's face and expect them to be happy about it. The Government belongs to the black peoples as much as it does the white people.

 

I still don't see how any of this affects Somerset. The Old Miss Rebels play in front of 80,000 people every game and most of their team are black.

Do they incorporate the confederate flag in their team colours though?

[The White Knight 9,039]

I thought we had already agreed that one of the reasons for their wanting to secede from the Union was due to the issue of slavery. This isn't an opinion but a fact.

 

Just out of interest, in your opinion, are all flags that have had blood shed over them in war due respect?

Do they incorporate the confederate flag in their team colours though?

We had agreed. But the main issue of the War in 1861 was the Right to secede from the Union. I'll put it another way, had the South decided to stay in the Union there would have been no Civil War. Initially Lincoln wanted to Ban the spread of slavery. In those Southern States who already had it, he was prepared to allow slavery to continue. Ergo, as I said the Right to Secession was the initial cause of the War.

[ruffdiamond 6,115]

No. He'd look silly on a bottle of orange squash at Wimbledon. Be better on a jar of Robertson's jam.

ye knew what I meant

[Truro Robin 39]

We had agreed. But the main issue of the War in 1861 was the Right to secede from the Union. I'll put it another way, had the South decided to stay in the Union there would have been no Civil War. Initially Lincoln wanted to Ban the spread of slavery. In those Southern States who already had it, he was prepared to allow slavery to continue. Ergo, as I said the Right to Secession was the initial cause of the War.

Taken from an article in Politico magazine written by Bruce Levine, Professor of History at the University of Illinois:

 

The Confederacy's vice president, Alexander Stephens, also acknowledged that disputes about "the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization" between North and South constituted "the immediate cause" of secession. "Our new Government," he exulted, was founded "upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."

 

 

 

[Humphrey Appleby 13,974]

Initially Lincoln wanted to Ban the spread of slavery. In those Southern States who already had it, he was prepared to allow slavery to continue.

 

He was prepared to allow it to continue in the Northern States that had it.

 

The South wanted to ensure a balance of free and slave states in the Union to avoid being outvoted if abolition was on the agenda. This became increasingly contentious as the western territories gradually became states and entered into the Union.

Taken from an article in Politico magazine written by Bruce Levine, Professor of History at the University of Illinois:

 

The Confederacy's vice president, Alexander Stephens, also acknowledged that disputes about "the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization" between North and South constituted "the immediate cause" of secession. "Our new Government," he exulted, was founded "upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."

 

These sorts of racist treatises were hardly unique to the South. Many in the north would have shared similar views, even if they actually didn't actually agree with the institution of slavery.

 

For many years after the Civil War, the lot of the African Americans in practice became substantially worse. Whereas there was often a degree of paternalism on the part of slave owners, the aftermath of the Civil War saw all sorts of racist policies being introduced.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Humphrey Appleby

[Robbie B 262]

I personally know what its like on the victims side, as I had a family member murdered 10 years ago.

 

What I'm trying to point out is no matter what flag the killer may have flown in the day of this tragedy. The person that murdered these people is totally and wholly to blame for his actions. Even a gun won't kill someone if no-one pulls the trigger.

 

In the USA more people per week get killed because of gun crime (mainly gang members) then in a year during the UK.

 

Until any gun law is enforced in the US nothing will ever change. But the NRA are way to powerful for this to happen though, so regrettably this won't be the last case of these kind of things happening.

 

The media always like to find a reason for things, so that they can then hype-it-up hence and the fore-roar over the Confederate flag is just one case in point. The flag maybe a calling card to some certain types of people, but these people would always I feel do something evil and wrong, as its something in their nature.

[The White Knight 9,039]

Taken from an article in Politico magazine written by Bruce Levine, Professor of History at the University of Illinois:

 

The Confederacy's vice president, Alexander Stephens, also acknowledged that disputes about "the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization" between North and South constituted "the immediate cause" of secession. "Our new Government," he exulted, was founded "upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."

 

 

 

Precisely. "Immediate cause of Secession".

 

But the War itself was caused by that Secession, not Slavery. Slavery may have been behind the argument, as you say, I still maintain though, that the War started because of the Southern States seceding from the Union - not because of Slavery.

 

The Histories that I have read are all consistent in this - even Shelby Foote's excellent Three Volume Civil War History written from a Southern point of view.

 

In case you think I am being blinkered here - I have also read Bruce Catton's Three Volume History too - that is written from the Northern point of view.

Edited July 3, 2015 by The White Knight

[Ray Stadia 1,071]

Precisely. "Immediate cause of Secession".

 

But the War itself was caused by that Secession, not Slavery. Slavery may have been behind the argument, as you say, I still maintain though, that the War started because of the Southern States seceding from the Union - not because of Slavery.

 

The Histories that I have read are all consistent in this - even Shelby Foot's excellent Three Volume Civil War History written from a Southern point of view.

 

In case you think I am being blinkered here - I have also read Bruce Catton's Three Volume History too - that is written from the Northern point of view.

 

Any relation to Brian Foot(e), Rayleigh Rockets rider!