Barney Rabbit 727 Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, BWitcher said: In the old system a rider can be outscored in all rounds heavily, yet still end up World Champion. Two riders starting out in Commonwealth final. Rider A scores 15 Rider B 6 (you could get through that with 6pts many times) Next round, Overseas Rider A scores 15 Rider B 8 Next round, InterContinental Rider A scores 15 Rider B scores 6 (again you could get through with such a low score often) Final Rider A scores 14 (puncture of final bend for example) Rider B 15. Rider A scored 59pts Rider B 35pts.. yet Rider B is World Champion.. So by your own logic, it's not a point against the GP at all... it's massively points against the old system. There is simply no comparison, the GP is a far better system and is far more reliant on the skill and ability of a rider than luck. The old final had the drama of it being on one night... that's it. But he has to at least win one meeting - the final. Now it's possible for a rider to be champion at every GP but still not win the World Championship. Highly improbable agreed, but possible. So, in the old system, a rider has to win that last meeting to be WC. In the new system, a rider can win all the meetings and not be WC. One is undisputed fact, the other an improbability. Edited October 7, 2018 by Barney Rabbit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 7, 2018 18 minutes ago, Barney Rabbit said: But he has to at least win one meeting - the final. Now it's possible for a rider to be champion at every GP but still not win the World Championship. Highly improbable agreed, but possible. So, in the old system, a rider has to win that last meeting to be WC. In the new system, a rider can win all the meetings and not be WC. One is undisputed fact, the other an improbability. One gives you the best rider in the world or at the very least very, very close to it every single time. The other allows a random winner who is nowhere near the best rider in the world to win.. as has happened numerous times. It's a no brainer. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vince 9,458 Posted October 7, 2018 The GP finds the best, most consistent rider over the course of a season on a variety of tracks and in varying conditions, I can't see a better way of producing a true World Champion. Some of the old World Finals were great and dramatic but everybody forgets those that were crap. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barney Rabbit 727 Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 44 minutes ago, BWitcher said: One gives you the best rider in the world or at the very least very, very close to it every single time. The other allows a random winner who is nowhere near the best rider in the world to win.. as has happened numerous times. It's a no brainer. I prefer the cut-and-thrust of a one-night event, get it wrong and you lose, if your bike packs up, tough, man and machine are a unit in the sport we used to have, to the 'oh well, I've ten other goes to get it right' competition we have now. That's a no brainer. We both have differing opinions, not wrong ones. Edited October 7, 2018 by Barney Rabbit 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tyler42 150 Posted October 7, 2018 29 minutes ago, BWitcher said: One gives you the best rider in the world or at the very least very, very close to it every single time. The other allows a random winner who is nowhere near the best rider in the world to win.. as has happened numerous times. It's a no brainer. Since 1954, Only two riders were imo shock winners. Jerzy Szczakiel and Egon Mullier. Who else would you say were no where near the best rider to win it from 54? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tyler42 150 Posted October 7, 2018 32 minutes ago, Vince said: The GP finds the best, most consistent rider over the course of a season on a variety of tracks and in varying conditions, I can't see a better way of producing a true World Champion. Some of the old World Finals were great and dramatic but everybody forgets those that were crap. There has been enough GP's over the years that would fall into that category. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tyler42 150 Posted October 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Daniel Smith said: That's your opinion but please tell us what Peter Collins has won? I more relevant question would. What hasn't he won? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, tyler42 said: I more relevant question would. What hasn't he won? Three individual World titles Edited October 7, 2018 by BWitcher 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,362 Posted October 7, 2018 1 hour ago, tyler42 said: Since 1954, Only two riders were imo shock winners. Jerzy Szczakiel and Egon Mullier. Who else would you say were no where near the best rider to win it from 54? No way was Egon Muller a shock winner. I went to that meeting, and beforehand pretty much everyone on our coach thought he might win. He might not have won it on a Grand Prix system, but on a one-off in Germany he was one of the favourites. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,984 Posted October 7, 2018 Just now, Grachan said: No way was Egon Muller a shock winner. I went to that meeting, and beforehand pretty much everyone on our coach thought he might win. He might not have won it on a Grand Prix system, but on a one-off in Germany he was one of the favourites. He was even picked out by Briggo before the season started as a big favorite to win.And I have a 1972 season review that picks Jerzy as a dark horseto win the 1973 title,so neither was such a surprise as people today seem to think Fact is though neither would really have been a favorite over a GP season.Egon might well be up there as a contender for a medal.A certainty to get in the top 8 I would say 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OveFundinFan 4,142 Posted October 7, 2018 20 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Three individual World titles You mean Peter Collins has not won three INDIVIDUAL world titles, he has won a total of 10 world titles. How many world titles has Tai won? er 3 (good going, but far short of Collins) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said: You mean Peter Collins has not won three INDIVIDUAL world titles, he has won a total of 10 world titles. How many world titles has Tai won? er 3 (good going, but far short of Collins) Tai Woffinden has won three. Peter Collins has won one. That is the only thing they can be compared against. The ability of team mates, which are necessary for the other titles, render them redundant to the discussion. Plus the standard of opposition in some of those pairs and team victories was not exactly 'elite'. Edited October 7, 2018 by BWitcher 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,362 Posted October 7, 2018 32 minutes ago, iris123 said: He was even picked out by Briggo before the season started as a big favorite to win.And I have a 1972 season review that picks Jerzy as a dark horseto win the 1973 title,so neither was such a surprise as people today seem to think Fact is though neither would really have been a favorite over a GP season.Egon might well be up there as a contender for a medal.A certainty to get in the top 8 I would say A lot of it, I think, goes back to the myth propogated at the time that if you didn't ride in the UK then you weren't any good. I also used to have a video about Ivan Mauger, calked Circuits of Gold, in which Ivan's wife talked about Ivan beating himself up trying to emulate stuff that Egon Muller was doing. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,362 Posted October 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Tai Woffinden has won three. Peter Collins has won one. That is the only thing they can be compared against. The ability of team mates, which are necessary for the other titles, render them redundant to the discussion. I agree, although looking back at the British World Champions since I started going in 1974, if any of them were made of the same stuff as Woffinden then it would be Peter Collins. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Grachan said: I agree, although looking back at the British World Champions since I started going in 1974, if any of them were made of the same stuff as Woffinden then it would be Peter Collins. Yep, not taking anything away from Peter Collins at all. Brilliant rider. Just this nonsensical argument put forward about his other titles. Look at the 77 pairs.. on his home track at Hyde Road.. the opposition was mediocre at best. Similarly in 1980.. nothing major in terms of opposition, the Poles on their own track plus the Danes with a yet to fully mature Nielsen the best.. the rest complete also rans. Similar story in many of the World Team Cup Finals. The standard of the teams competing in a World Cup Final now is way above those competing in the World Team Cup Finals of the 70's. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites