BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, moxey63 said: I disagree about the sport moving on though. It's not something to disagree on. You only have to look at Nicki Pedersen.. 3 x World Champion. Still at the highest level at league speedway.. but at the very highest level, it's moved on and he can't consistently keep up. Edited October 8, 2018 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,993 Posted October 8, 2018 We have a hell of a lot of riders who have been riding speedway since they were 5,6 or 7 years old.That was pretty well unheard of 30 years ago.Riders started as teenagers generally.10 years of experience must pay dividends.That is without the fitness,diet,psychological aspects of modern sport Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iainb 5,020 Posted October 8, 2018 27 minutes ago, customhouseregular said: I admit it's all conjecture and comparing eras and systems does not give valid answers. It is only a personal opinion that Tai would have found it harder to win 3 titles pre-1995. It does not mean though he would not have achieved it. Class is class and usually wins through I agree that Tai would have found it harder to win pre 95 not because he wouldn't have been good enough though but because it could have all been spoilt by a dodgy referring decision or a mechanic forgetting to turn the fuel on Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
customhouseregular 1,651 Posted October 8, 2018 Yes, Tai is probably the best British rider ever but all riders are products of their time. Do Tai's 3 modern day titles make him a better British rider than Craven?, or Hancock's 4 make him better American than Penhall or Rickardsson's 6 make him a better Swede than Fundin?. Titles are one yardstick but not the only one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted October 8, 2018 13 minutes ago, iainb said: I agree that Tai would have found it harder to win pre 95 not because he wouldn't have been good enough though but because it could have all been spoilt by a dodgy referring decision or a mechanic forgetting to turn the fuel on The very top riders would have found it a little harder under the old system. The very good riders, but not actually the very best, would find it way way harder under the GP system. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,993 Posted October 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, customhouseregular said: Yes, Tai is probably the best British rider ever but all riders are products of their time. Do Tai's 3 modern day titles make him a better British rider than Craven?, or Hancock's 4 make him better American than Penhall or Rickardsson's 6 make him a better Swede than Fundin?. Titles are one yardstick but not the only one. My opinion is that is isn’t easy to compare 100%.We can point to the fact that PC died at a stage where it was still possible to win more titles.My one doubt about him was his very poor performance in Sweden.A different time,but Craven made some great performances in challenge meetins in Poland and Russia.But against Polish and Russian riders,who were good but not the best.Tai has proved himself around Europe and the world against the very best.There can be no doubt about his ability on various tracks.Not quite so sure because of Malmo,we can say the same about Craven and any British rider from that era or before Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ColinMills 1,728 Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Skidder1 said: Nice article and photo of Tai becoming 3 times World Champion in the Sun today. Not sure of any other national media coverage. should check out daily star (cover speedway every Wednesday) full woffy page pic/story. he says he will retire on the podium when he smash their record on the 7th world championship Edited October 8, 2018 by ColinMills 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barney Rabbit 727 Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Grachan said: I think you only have to see what he did on Saturday when the real pressure was on to get the answer to that. But under the old system he would not have had the opportunity to do what he did when the real pressure was on because he would not have had those extra two rides. The meeting would have stopped after all riders had had five rides, Woffinden finishing third with ten points, five points behind the meeting winner. Edited October 8, 2018 by Barney Rabbit 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,362 Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Barney Rabbit said: But under the old system he would not have had the opportunity to do what he did when the real pressure was on because he would not have had those extra two rides. The meeting would have stopped after all riders had had five rides, Woffinden finishing third with ten points, five points behind the meeting winner. But we'll never know how Zmarzlik or Laguta would have coped once the Championship was on the line either. Neither could pull it off once they had a victory in their sights. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ColinMills 1,728 Posted October 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, Barney Rabbit said: But under the old system he would not have had the opportunity to do what he did when the real pressure was on because he would not have had those extra two rides. The meeting would have stopped after all riders had had five rides, Woffinden finishing third with ten points, five points behind the meeting winner. there was a couple of stupid gp years where you packed up if third/fourth in first two rides, was also a time where you kept gate one..some GP rules been ridiculous Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tyler42 150 Posted October 8, 2018 4 hours ago, iainb said: I didn't like your post I thought it was insulting to modern day riders, who are riding faster than ever before You are entitled to not to like my post. Of course that is what the forum is for, but for you to abuse me is totally different. As i said earlier, you don't know me so please don't call me names. Lets end this little discussion now if you don't mind. I don't have to defend my opinion to you or anyone else. My opinion is my opinion. Nothing more nothing less. There are lots of posts i don't agree with, but that is the posters opinion. I can challenge it if i want, but I would certainly not abuse someone for there opinions. Thank you 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,993 Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, iris123 said: My opinion is that is isn’t easy to compare 100%.We can point to the fact that PC died at a stage where it was still possible to win more titles.My one doubt about him was his very poor performance in Sweden.A different time,but Craven made some great performances in challenge meetins in Poland and Russia.But against Polish and Russian riders,who were good but not the best.Tai has proved himself around Europe and the world against the very best.There can be no doubt about his ability on various tracks.Not quite so sure because of Malmo,we can say the same about Craven and any British rider from that era or before Further to my theory on PC,i did a random check on how he went at my old club Wimbledon in 1956(the year he was reigning world champion) In the opening meeting of the season he finished 6th on 9 pts,behind R.Moore,Briggo,A.Forrest,A.Wright and Ken Middleditch.Now the first few ok world class,but the last couple? Then he rode in a best pairs and got beat by Crutcher,Ronnie Moore,Peter Moore,A.Wright,Briggo but did beat Fundin and Aub Lawson Then in NL got beat by Briggo and Ronnie and also lost a Golden Helmet match race against Ronnie 2-0 Even at Belle Vue he then got beat by Briggo,P + R.Moore At Plough Lane in the next match he got beat by Brine,P + R.Moore,but did win his heat against Maidment and reserve Goldfinch!! In the next meeting at BV he was beaten by Hagon and How,then by Hagon and in his heat against Briggo and Ronnie Moore he fell In the Laurels he was actually top scorer in the quails,only being beaten by Peter Moore,but was last in his semi final against P.Moore,Hunt and How The next meeting at BV he got a max,so can take nothing away from him there Then in the meeting at Plough Lane he was beaten by P.Moore then Ronnie beat him then Ronnie and Briggo beat him,then P.Moore beat him and he finished in front of Briggo!!then he beat Brine and How and then Ronnie beat him but he beat Peter So really in a season when he was world champ he didn't have a very great set of results at Plough Lane and even at home wasn't really looking like a world champ Also looking at his appearances abroad in 4 WTC finals and he never was better than the 4th best scorer in any of those meetings!!! Edited October 8, 2018 by iris123 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tyler42 150 Posted October 8, 2018 2 hours ago, BWitcher said: Every single rider past and present will tell you that. Thats quite a broad statement to make. I know plenty of riders past, who would disagree with that statement Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ColinMills 1,728 Posted October 8, 2018 2 hours ago, moxey63 said: But you have nothing to back up that standards are higher today, apart from me having to go and ask every rider past and present. I am going on what I see in results and rider careers. You can only compare like with like. When you take away Rickardsson (6 titles), Crump (3), and now Pedersen (3), championships become easier to win. We aren't talking decades ago, just 10 years. When those three riders either retired or began to demise, as Pedersen did, it allowed others in with a chance. Gollob won one, Holder (remember him), and then Hancock got back in there, Woffinden and even Doyle. It has become easier in just 10 years to win the GP. The real stars had left the building. The way it is now, Woffinden could easily do a Scott Nicholls in the British Championship and make Peter Collins' one win (in the World Final and British Final) seem pathetic. And we know it was harder back then, when every rider lived the same sort of lifestyles and were just as professional as each other and there were many more individual meetings to test the fact. nail on head with british title....soo weak nowadays, would never got a second tier rider near Coventry in 70s 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iris123 20,993 Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, ColinMills said: nail on head with british title....soo weak nowadays, would never got a second tier rider near Coventry in 70s National titles are no longer a mark of greatness.I think the rider with the most Danish final wins is Niels Kristian Iversen and that in the Nicki Pedersen era.Now nobody in their right mind will try to use those titles to suggest NKI is better than Nicki let alone Hans Nielsen and Ole Olsen 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites