DC2 11,150 Posted November 1, 2019 1 hour ago, robins les said: But you can't have a 2 point assessed average in PL, nothing less than 3 & surely the conversion rate is 0.6 meaning an average of 2.63. The conversion rate from PL to CL is 1.6. If you had a movable conversion rate as you suggest, there would be outrage & people saying there was cheating. I was looking at a fair conversion rate to CL averages for those PL riders who don’t have one, solely for one league. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DC2 11,150 Posted November 1, 2019 2 hours ago, stevebrum said: Pedersen? He wasn’t in the same league average wise in the UK. I thought he had a 10 point average for a couple of seasons? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aces51 2,778 Posted November 1, 2019 A quick look at the doubling up riders at the end of the season shows that the average conversion factor to convert their PL actual averages to their actual CL averages was 1.253. It varies from 1.93 to convert Wells actual PL average to his actual CL average down to 1.10 to do the same calculation for Jorgensen. As we know the conversion factor used was 1.5, which will increase to 1.6 next season. The evidence shows that 1.5 was too high. However, it was a deliberate BSPA policy to reduce the opportunities for doubling down for riders who didn't start the season in the CL. Bewley fell foul of this during the season when he wanted to get a CL place before he was given rides in Poland and Sweden. Using the 1.5 conversion he was saddled withsomething like a 10.5 CL average. The intention to increase the conversion factor by 0.1 every season, until it reaches 2.0, will make it more and more difficult for riders like Bewley to double down but more and more attractive for riders in the CL, who don't have a PL average, to double up. By way of example, next year Josh Pickering, who has a CL average of 6.93, would have a PL average of 4.33 and in 5 years time, 3.46. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DC2 11,150 Posted November 1, 2019 4 hours ago, stevebrum said: Pedersen? He wasn’t in the same league average wise in the UK. He topped the averages with 10.15 in 2005, ahead of Adams, Crump and Hancock, and got 9.65 in 2006, a little below them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebrum 6,821 Posted November 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, DC2 said: He topped the averages with 10.15 in 2005, ahead of Adams, Crump and Hancock, and got 9.65 in 2006, a little below them. That’s 2 seasons out of how many? For consistency as a number one he wasn’t in the same league. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebrum 6,821 Posted November 1, 2019 2 hours ago, DC2 said: I thought he had a 10 point average for a couple of seasons? 2 out of how many seasons? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv 10,706 Posted November 1, 2019 3 hours ago, arnieg said: A problem easily solved with some simple linear regression All sorts of relatively simple solutions but out of the grasp of those making the decisions I'd expect - also too many struggle with the most simplistic of calculations for the current averages as it is!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv 10,706 Posted November 1, 2019 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Aces51 said: A quick look at the doubling up riders at the end of the season shows that the average conversion factor to convert their PL actual averages to their actual CL averages was 1.253. It varies from 1.93 to convert Wells actual PL average to his actual CL average down to 1.10 to do the same calculation for Jorgensen. As we know the conversion factor used was 1.5, which will increase to 1.6 next season. The evidence shows that 1.5 was too high. However, it was a deliberate BSPA policy to reduce the opportunities for doubling down for riders who didn't start the season in the CL. Bewley fell foul of this during the season when he wanted to get a CL place before he was given rides in Poland and Sweden. Using the 1.5 conversion he was saddled withsomething like a 10.5 CL average. The intention to increase the conversion factor by 0.1 every season, until it reaches 2.0, will make it more and more difficult for riders like Bewley to double down but more and more attractive for riders in the CL, who don't have a PL average, to double up. By way of example, next year Josh Pickering, who has a CL average of 6.93, would have a PL average of 4.33 and in 5 years time, 3.46. A severely flawed plan IMO - doesnt solve the doubling up problem and just makes manipulation by top flight clubs making changes more of a possibility Edited November 1, 2019 by dontforgetthefueltapsbruv 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
r8gdp 461 Posted November 1, 2019 Bin the averages let teams sign who they want . Speedway s on it s knees in this country let's see how we go 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bald Bloke 3,287 Posted November 1, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, r8gdp said: Bin the averages let teams sign who they want . Speedway s on it s knees in this country let's see how we go Wouldn't be for me. I don't think it would make for a competitive league. And we can't afford another team to drop out. 7 is the minimum. Look at the Panthers in 2019.Reported crap crowds, fans not happy, and Buster said they/he lost money. If it was a free for all, i'm not sure they would be the only dejected team in 2020 if that happened. I don't have the answer tbh but I don't think no limit is it. Edited November 1, 2019 by Bald Bloke 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,278 Posted November 2, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Bald Bloke said: Wouldn't be for me. I don't think it would make for a competitive league. And we can't afford another team to drop out. 7 is the minimum. Look at the Panthers in 2019.Reported crap crowds, fans not happy, and Buster said they/he lost money. If it was a free for all, i'm not sure they would be the only dejected team in 2020 if that happened. I don't have the answer tbh but I don't think no limit is it. Maybe they all start "equal" then after ''x' matches home and away whoever has the highest average becomes the benchmark for the rest to work too? Too often, and too early in the season, there is far too great a gap from top to bottom, and given the restrictive rules around allowed replacements all that seems to happen is the bottom teams do nothing but 'move around the deck chairs on the Titanic', and don't move forwards enough to improve a failing season.. It would also mean that by the end of the season teams should all be closer to each other with their final average meaning that maybe they could start to use the Champions figure as the starting point the year after? Whatever system followed using averages will be inherently flawed due to all the variables within its delivery, and its subjective nature, however ending each season with teams miles apart suggests it needs some improving to deliver what it's supposed to.. Edited November 2, 2019 by mikebv Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
B.V 72 1,054 Posted November 2, 2019 7 hours ago, mikebv said: Maybe they all start "equal" then after ''x' matches home and away whoever has the highest average becomes the benchmark for the rest to work too? Too often, and too early in the season, there is far too great a gap from top to bottom, and given the restrictive rules around allowed replacements all that seems to happen is the bottom teams do nothing but 'move around the deck chairs on the Titanic', and don't move forwards enough to improve a failing season.. It would also mean that by the end of the season teams should all be closer to each other with their final average meaning that maybe they could start to use the Champions figure as the starting point the year after? Whatever system followed using averages will be inherently flawed due to all the variables within its delivery, and its subjective nature, however ending each season with teams miles apart suggests it needs some improving to deliver what it's supposed to.. You mean like better run sports like footballs Premier league where any team can sign whoever they like and as it stands Liverpool have 28 points and Watford have 5. Any league system usually has a big difference in points scored between the top and bottom teams. At least in speedway all teams on paper start the season even and its down to the manager to be savvy enough to sign a team of improvers and riders that can score points home and away to gain points on the road and that's what will bring you success whatever the points limit is. Where in football the sign whoever you like system usually means money buys you success. In my opinion speedways system if far fairer for all the clubs in the league than football will ever be. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gunner85 603 Posted November 3, 2019 At one time Sweden had the team average for the following season set by the average of the top 3 teams in the season just departed. Problem is that tends to raise the average over a long period of time. The greater the average , the more experienced riders required and consequently larger wage bills. Using the Green sheet averages , our limit should be 42 in the Premier league and the Championship league. The NL should be a training ground for younger riders and therefore an agreed limit 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JC71 205 Posted November 5, 2019 On 11/1/2019 at 10:57 PM, r8gdp said: Bin the averages let teams sign who they want . Speedway s on it s knees in this country let's see how we go How about a compromise........36.00 limit for team building, but for the lower 6 riders only. 7th rider could be whoever you wanted. Even have different riders sharing that 7th spot, although they could only ride for 1 team a season........ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MattK 3,447 Posted November 5, 2019 Let teams build to whatever average they like, then for each meeting the difference forms a handicap for the team with the higher average. For example, Swindon builds to 45 and Sheffield builds to 40. Therefore Swindon start on -5 when they ride against Sheffield at Sheffield and -10 (to account for the home advantage) at Swindon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites