Diamonds85 700 Posted June 24, 2023 A question that's surely been asked a million times on here before. But can someone explain to me how the hell they work and what the difference is between CMA, Greensheet and Rolling and why there has to be three different types of averages!! How are they even calculated (Points/Rides)*4?? Or point me to a webpage where I can find this info. Cheers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cast1rn 464 Posted June 24, 2023 My understanding is that it's now based on the last 20 eligible meetings (was 10 last season) From what I've heard it's the number of points scored/number of rides X 4. Now if it is that simple it is beyond stupid because that can be manipulated in a very very simple manner. It seems to be a closely guarded secret and I would love to here the equation they actually use. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoundTheBoards 271 Posted June 24, 2023 (edited) The NDL uses "straight averages" so they basically use all matches in the current season. The Premiership and Championship use "rolling averages" which are based on a set number of meetings. Once a rider has done that number of meetings, all subsequent meetings are added and the oldest matches drop off to keep it at that number of meetings. They do tend to change the number of meetings it is based on from season to season., but I think it's in the rulebook. (can't remember without checking) Edited June 24, 2023 by RoundTheBoards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cast1rn 464 Posted June 25, 2023 1 hour ago, RoundTheBoards said: They do tend to change the number of meetings it is based on from season to season., but I think it's in the rulebook. (can't remember without checking) Unfortunately the rule book on CMA's is extremely vague, something along the lines of "riders averages will be calculated based on points scored and all eligible heats." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoundTheBoards 271 Posted June 25, 2023 11 minutes ago, Cast1rn said: Unfortunately the rule book on CMA's is extremely vague, Yes I've checked the rule book. It says calculated over "a specific number of applicable meetings". But doesn't say what that specific number is. However this year in the Premiership it's definitely 20 meetings, and I'm pretty sure it's 20 in the Championship too. So it's just the last 20 matches. Once a rider reaches 21 matches you add the most recent one on and drop the oldest one off, to remain over 20 matches. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diamonds85 700 Posted June 25, 2023 1 hour ago, RoundTheBoards said: Yes I've checked the rule book. It says calculated over "a specific number of applicable meetings". But doesn't say what that specific number is. However this year in the Premiership it's definitely 20 meetings, and I'm pretty sure it's 20 in the Championship too. So it's just the last 20 matches. Once a rider reaches 21 matches you add the most recent one on and drop the oldest one off, to remain over 20 matches. That feels like a very annoying way to calculate it... Particularly if you're wanting to keep track of it by a spreadsheet... Do the people who make the rules just make it as difficult as possible for the people who keep track of these things or what! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gambo 1,341 Posted June 25, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Diamonds85 said: That feels like a very annoying way to calculate it... Particularly if you're wanting to keep track of it by a spreadsheet... Do the people who make the rules just make it as difficult as possible for the people who keep track of these things or what! It's quite easy to keep track of it via a Spreadsheet.... trust me! You can even get a copy of a similar Spreadsheet to the one the BSPA use from www.kandysoft.com. Edited June 25, 2023 by Gambo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cast1rn 464 Posted June 25, 2023 6 hours ago, Diamonds85 said: That feels like a very annoying way to calculate it... Particularly if you're wanting to keep track of it by a spreadsheet... Do the people who make the rules just make it as difficult as possible for the people who keep track of these things or what! My personal opinion is the more meetings that are included the better and the less influence can be had to manipulate riding positions and averages. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoundTheBoards 271 Posted June 25, 2023 6 hours ago, Diamonds85 said: That feels like a very annoying way to calculate it... Particularly if you're wanting to keep track of it by a spreadsheet... Do the people who make the rules just make it as difficult as possible for the people who keep track of these things or what! It's not difficult at all. Quite simple to plug number of races and points scored into a spreadsheet. It's only 3 little numbers per rider each match (2 really since you don't have to bother with BP). If you can't do your own simple spreadsheet, you can buy one off Kandysoft. Better still just read the averages off the BSPA website where they're all calculated for you anyway! How do you go on with football? How do you calculate the percentage of possession, shots on/off target, percentage of tackles won? Or do you just read it off OPTA? What about Duckworth-Lewis in Cricket? Speedway is simple! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arnieg 3,649 Posted June 25, 2023 Or just go to gbspeedway.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bald Bloke 3,287 Posted June 25, 2023 17 hours ago, Diamonds85 said: A question that's surely been asked a million times on here before. But can someone explain to me how the hell they work and what the difference is between CMA, Greensheet and Rolling and why there has to be three different types of averages!! How are they even calculated (Points/Rides)*4?? Or point me to a webpage where I can find this info. Cheers I use this, when working out if rider changes fit a team average. p23_issue_15.pdf (britishspeedway.co.uk) Riders averages are worked on league meetings, with BP's not counting. For example Joe Blogg's has scored 46 points from 22 rides, You divide the points by the rides, then x the answer by 4... 46 divided by 22 = 2.09 x 4 = 8.36 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cast1rn 464 Posted June 25, 2023 10 minutes ago, Bald Bloke said: I use this, when working out if rider changes fit a team average. p23_issue_15.pdf (britishspeedway.co.uk) Riders averages are worked on league meetings, with BP's not counting. For example Joe Blogg's has scored 46 points from 22 rides, You divide the points by the rides, then x the answer by 4... 46 divided by 22 = 2.09 x 4 = 8.36 I was hoping someone would pull that equation out, because if that's what they are using, they need to employee somebody with a GCSE in Maths to show them how wrong it is. You have a number 6 you want moved into the main body of the team. You follow these simple steps. Only let them take 3 rides Heats 2 and 14 (where they'll be up against the opposition's #7) Reserve switch in heat 8 and boom you have 3 goes to score 3/4 points Vs the oppositions weakest rider. 3/3 X 4 = 4 4/3 X 4 = 5.3 You wanna know the even funnier thing put your second string through the tapes and that counts to their average too.and they'll be all set for a spot at 6 before you know it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Normski 1,316 Posted June 25, 2023 20 minutes ago, Bald Bloke said: I use this, when working out if rider changes fit a team average. p23_issue_15.pdf (britishspeedway.co.uk) Riders averages are worked on league meetings, with BP's not counting. For example Joe Blogg's has scored 46 points from 22 rides, You divide the points by the rides, then x the answer by 4... 46 divided by 22 = 2.09 x 4 = 8.36 i am sure at one time averages were just for programmed rides where now it seems to be every ride. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv 10,706 Posted June 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Cast1rn said: My personal opinion is the more meetings that are included the better and the less influence can be had to manipulate riding positions and averages. The argument for the numbers used is that it covers around a season Double the number and by July 2023 you could be using meetings ridden in 2021 - hardly a good reflection of current form Either way can have issues - add in those starting on assessed average gaining a first real figure after just 3 home and 3 away and there will always be 'opportunities' for those looking to manipulate Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arnieg 3,649 Posted June 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Cast1rn said: I was hoping someone would pull that equation out, because if that's what they are using, they need to employee somebody with a GCSE in Maths to show them how wrong it is. You have a number 6 you want moved into the main body of the team. You follow these simple steps. Only let them take 3 rides Heats 2 and 14 (where they'll be up against the opposition's #7) Reserve switch in heat 8 and boom you have 3 goes to score 3/4 points Vs the oppositions weakest rider. 3/3 X 4 = 4 4/3 X 4 = 5.3 You wanna know the even funnier thing put your second string through the tapes and that counts to their average too.and they'll be all set for a spot at 6 before you know it. You appear to be suggesting giving your weaker reserve three rides and your strongest reserve five - not sure about that as strategy. I agree there are circumstances where encouraging a rider to break the tapes could be helpful in lowering averages. I guess you'd like the system the Poles used to use where they simply ignored the reserve race in calculating averages. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
