UK Speedway in Turmoil?

[a4poster 82]

Nah, not a chance. Just watch the annual backslapping and everything in the garden is rosy attitude when the Cardiff GP comes around!

Edited July 8, 2023 by a4poster

[iainb 5,017]

Yes

[ch958 2,395]

needs tough decisions unpopular with riders and some fans. The day 4 valves came in was the beginning of the bike wagging the rider so to speak. 90pc of fans couldn't give a moneys about the bikes, just want decent racing at a price we can afford. 

[Sotonian 610]

2 hours ago, ch958 said:

needs tough decisions unpopular with riders and some fans. The day 4 valves came in was the beginning of the bike wagging the rider so to speak. 90pc of fans couldn't give a moneys about the bikes, just want decent racing at a price we can afford. 

I presume you don't mean the 4 valve Rudge in 1929?

[ch958 2,395]

9 hours ago, Sotonian said:

I presume you don't mean the 4 valve Rudge in 1929?

funny - just what this debate needs

[truthsayer 234]

13 minutes ago, ch958 said:

funny - just what this debate needs

Your comment didn't add to the debate in any way. Now if you'd qualified your statement by saying '... because' then maybe it could be taken seriously.

As it was it just comes across as 'old man shouting at cloud'.

[ch958 2,395]

56 minutes ago, truthsayer said:

Your comment didn't add to the debate in any way. Now if you'd qualified your statement by saying '... because' then maybe it could be taken seriously.

As it was it just comes across as 'old man shouting at cloud'.

if thats what you take from it, fine. My point was and is that the 'progress' in machinery means nowt to fans and merely adds huge costs that the sport cannot afford. It certainly adds nothing to the racing. 

Edited July 9, 2023 by ch958
clarity

[truthsayer 234]

23 minutes ago, ch958 said:

if thats what you take from it, fine. My point was and is that the 'progress' in machinery means nowt to fans and merely adds huge costs that the sport cannot afford. It certainly adds nothing to the racing. 

FWIW I agree with you. There's no need for such expensive equipment if it was standardised. It would save costs and possibly even improve the show.

But four-valve engines aren't the cause. Progress is. If rules stated 'two valves only' then we'd still be riding just as highly-tuned and expensive engines - the only difference is that they would have two-valves rather than four. People want a competitive edge and will spend to do so, and will push the rules as far as they can. 

A standard engine, two-valves or four, is in theory the solution but the sport couldn't afford it as a rule change. Someone would need to buy them. Current journeymen would probably quit because of the investment. Current equipment would become obsolete and worthless and the cost to police it would likely be prohibitive. Although, in theory, it would save money the investment needed would be beyond most stakeholders currently involved in the sport.

[Deano 1,318]

1 hour ago, truthsayer said:

FWIW I agree with you. There's no need for such expensive equipment if it was standardised. It would save costs and possibly even improve the show.

The sports governors could set a date for it to be enforced, giving people time to understand it and adapt. I don’t mean months, for example the 2025 season.

I believe it’s needed so money can be invested elsewhere. Such as stand alone stadia and possibly short term cheaper admissions.

[Sotonian 610]

4 hours ago, ch958 said:

funny - just what this debate needs

Obviously I was being facetious but I don't want that particular fact to be forgotten.

With regard to modern 4-valvers, I don't think the number of valves per se is the issue. Weslakes and first generation Jawa 4-valves really didn't seem markedly different to the 2-valves (they sounded similar and track records were not being obliterated for instance) and still suited the tracks of the time. It's the evolution of them into the high revving laydowns that aren't suited to current tracks that sees us where we are now.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Sotonian

[truthsayer 234]

Four valve engines didn’t cause stadia to be sold for development, nor for the sport to fail to invest in practice facilities. Nor did it have influence on the development of the internet or satellite Tb, or the other choices keeping people away from speedway.

highly tuned engines do add unnecessary cost for competitors. Many motorsports have brought in standardised motors. The system used in Moto2, where teams lease sealed engines would be a good system but right now that’s the last of speedway’s problems.

if you had a five year plan, it would be part of it though.

[ch958 2,395]

agree its not the no1 problem. I prob posted 2 years ago that we're in survival mode and we still are and costs to riders get knocked on as salary demands and then knocked on as entrance fees so they are linked. Its a hoary old chestnut but admission fees have to be linked to what folk will stand versus what else they could get for 20 quid. 12 or 15 quid and its an easier decision so, somehow, costs of running would need to accommodate that and it prob doesn't allow for flying GP stars in to ride in front of 3 figure crowds. Like I said originally, tough unpopular decisions needed. 

[steve roberts 9,246]

7 hours ago, truthsayer said:

Four valve engines didn’t cause stadia to be sold for development, nor for the sport to fail to invest in practice facilities. Nor did it have influence on the development of the internet or satellite Tb, or the other choices keeping people away from speedway.

highly tuned engines do add unnecessary cost for competitors. Many motorsports have brought in standardised motors. The system used in Moto2, where teams lease sealed engines would be a good system but right now that’s the last of speedway’s problems.

if you had a five year plan, it would be part of it though.

That's the crux...highly tuned engines that are costing more to maintain and the only people making any money are the tuners? Riders then expect to be paid more to off-set the rising costs of maintenance which is then reflected in admission prices when attendances are falling dramatically...it's a vicious circle. Recall Terry Betts commenting that his two valve Jawa required very little attention between meetings and he only stripped the engine down after a good number of meetings. Now bikes are stripped down after every meeting.

Edited July 9, 2023 by steve roberts

[Bald Bloke 3,287]

41 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

That's the crux...highly tuned engines that are costing more to maintain and the only people making any money are the tuners? Riders then expect to be paid more to off-set the rising costs of maintenance which is then reflected in admission prices when attendances are falling dramatically...it's a vicious circle. Recall Terry Betts commenting that his two valve Jawa required very little attention between meetings and he only stripped the engine down after a good number of meetings. Now bikes are stripped down after every meeting.

I believe after around 30 races, the bikes of today  are "serviced", which means an engine strip,  tolerances measured and re build with new parts where needed. There's a great vid out there, showing what it entails. I'll try and find it. Here it is. Very interesting imho. And well worth a watch..

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Bald Bloke

[truthsayer 234]

30 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

That's the crux...highly tuned engines that are costing more to maintain and the only people making any money are the tuners? Riders then expect to be paid more to off-set the rising costs of maintenance which is then reflected in admission prices when attendances are falling dramatically...it's a vicious circle. Recall Terry Betts commenting that his two valve Jawa required very little attention between meetings and he only stripped the engine down after a good number of meetings. Now bikes are stripped down after every meeting.

I would see no reason why a motor couldn't do 120 races between rebuilds. A system where a tuner/prep company tenders for a contract to supply all riders in official races would be the way forward. All engines identical, to the tendered spec, tested, sealed and allocated at random. Motors leased by the riders and swapped when the service level is met. Rider can adjust gearing, fuelling and ignition, but nothing internal. It's a formula used by other sports and reduces costs and increases fairness.

It would be my strategy if I was starting a speedway league today, but it's the least of the problems faced by British speedway at this time. As part of a five year plan though, it would be integral.