THE DEAN MACHINE Posted June 29 Report Share Posted June 29 5 minutes ago, truthsayer said: But speedway should be such an inexpensive and accessible participation sport, but it is not. It is not particularly accessible, despite what you say, and the number of people taking out of it cannot be justified by the amount of money in it. It is an amateur sport, with amateur sport levels of spectators, run (largely) at amateur level venues with presentation and promotion from enthusiastic but ultimately underwhelming individuals. The insistence that it continues to be this contrived team sport will be the death of it. The world is going to some dark places just now and the idea that league speedway exists in the UK in five years time seems impossible to me, sadly. Speedway is in comparison to thinks like motox relatively cheap at low to mid level and because of the low numbers of competitors is pretty easy these days to get into a team and if you want to just do for fun then there is tracks you can go almost every week, the downside is you will need to travel, as it is now it is unsustainable to carry on taking out more than is coming in but that doesn’t mean the team thing can’t work, it can and will but it needs leadership into the corporate world of which it doesn’t have, I agree the world is going to some dark places but that’s not speedway problem and neither should it be, I get you want to ride your bike for fun and you can nobody is stopping you, I do it myself a couple of times a year but the sport of speedway isn’t really aimed at the guys and girls like us, we have had our day,,we should know better by now and where we differ is I now want to watch league racing as I’ve always wanted to and there are 1000s who do but for whatever reasons as discussed above are choosing not too attend, speedway differs from other motorcycle sports because they are participant sports and speedway is primarily a fan sport, it is a team sport on bikes rather than a motorcycle sport 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piston197 Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 9 hours ago, Wee Eck said: I agree completely and was under the impression that BSPL required promotions to be limited liability companies. But I can’t find any other active companies under Andrew Bain’s name What you can see is 2 other companies both in Andrew Bain's name where they have both been threatened with action and then dissolved, one where his occupation is "Director" and one where his occupation is "Labourer " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Shovlar Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 Sad to read Workington has currently ceased. But not surprising if they were getting crowds of around 250. Struggle to run a NDL team with that figure. But the main issue is surely a mid Saturday afternoon run time. Straight up against football. Speedway can never compete against footy and never will. Hope some type of salvage job can be done to rescue the season. They should then drop down to NDL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 11 hours ago, truthsayer said: This is the thing. I don't care about fans. I am 48, I just want a hobby. I can spend a few grand a year like I do on track days but there is no outlet for anyone who doesn't want to be part of a team. This 'professional from day one' mentality has been around speedway for around 30 years. I seem to remember training tracks like Iwade, Felton and Linlithgow, where you could just pay your money and ride your bike. Some would just ride, others would go into a team system. An individual race series, where riders pay to enter and compete, would be a more typical business model for speedway. Most motorsports rely on entry fees to be viable, with sponsorship, TV deals and trackside audiences only really making a significant difference to the very top tier series. Speedway is not a motorsport, it is a team sport and it needs to be a participation sport. With all due respect, you don't seem to get that club speedway is dead. It is not relevant now and you are watching it die in front of you. It's not a case of not many fans want to watch me, not many fans want to watch. Full stop. Club Speedway is not dead,it just needs to get back to being “Club Speedway” not every rider riding for any Club during season.Fans want to see “their” riders every week.Take a leaf out of Polands book no guests they promote juniors.At least the fans are seeing their riders .Dont think it spoils the entertainment and produces new talent. NDL riders deserve a chance. IMO 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 10 hours ago, truthsayer said: Last one from me. I think we're not so far apart here. But speedway should be such an inexpensive and accessible participation sport, but it is not. It is not particularly accessible, despite what you say, and the number of people taking out of it cannot be justified by the amount of money in it. Every other sport I can think of has a clear delineation between the amateur and professional ranks. In amateur, the participant pays, whether that's car racing, tennis or fishing, and this is an industry in itself, one which is bigger than the professional side. Speedway does not have this, the number of amateurs should outrank 'professionals' by at least 50 to 1. It is an amateur sport, with amateur sport levels of spectators, run (largely) at amateur level venues with presentation and promotion from enthusiastic but ultimately underwhelming individuals. The insistence that it continues to be this contrived team sport will be the death of it. The world is going to some dark places just now and the idea that league speedway exists in the UK in five years time seems impossible to me, sadly. I agree we're not very far apart at all and there is no magic bullet that is going to cure all of Speedway's current ills, at the moment it's a death by a thousand cuts. I do take onboard what you're saying about participation, but there are avenues into the sport but that's not to say that more couldn't be done, you can always do more with everything and things should always be under constant evaluation. One thing I will say about Speedway is that it's niche, especially as a participation sport, always has been always will be. You can't just go into a Sports Direct and by a set of Darts, a Cricket Bat, Tennis/Squash/Badminton Racket, Golf Club, Hockey Stick, Football, Fishing Rod, Tiddlywinks etc. You have to go to a specialised supplier and buy highly specialised kit and I dare say you'd have done your £3k before you got anywhere near a Speedway track. In this respect it is also similar to F1 or more specifically Single Seater racing. Even the motorcycling fraternity don't really buy into Speedway like they do with MotoGP & Superbikes, I've heard it said that it's because they can go and buy the equivalent bike and ride it on the road and/or track. Can't argue with most of your last paragraph, I do think there will still be team Speedway in the UK in 5 years time though, even if it's only at an NDL level. All the best Iain 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksman Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 15 minutes ago, Fromafar said: Club Speedway is not dead,it just needs to get back to being “Club Speedway” not every rider riding for any Club during season.Fans want to see “their” riders every week.Take a leaf out of Polands book no guests they promote juniors.At least the fans are seeing their riders .Dont think it spoils the entertainment and produces new talent. NDL riders deserve a chance. IMO I would advocate that, but the problem is alot of fans are fickle and would see a weakened team as one with no chance of winning, and wouldn't bother going. Which I think would be less of a case with Polish fans. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesHarris Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 Just a couple of questions as I'm trying to work out their business model. Apologies if this has already been answered. How much are the promotion paying per point and are the riders on guarantees? What are the going rates for expenses these days? What is the average attendance and what percentage of that attendance is under 16? Finally does th home promotion have to pay the away riders? Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 (edited) 11 minutes ago, JamesHarris said: Just a couple of questions as I'm trying to work out their business model. Apologies if this has already been answered. How much are the promotion paying per point and are the riders on guarantees? What are the going rates for expenses these days? What is the average attendance and what percentage of that attendance is under 16? Finally does th home promotion have to pay the away riders? Thank you Do you want to know the colour of his underpants too ? Not being rude but those first 3 questions have nothing to do with you, it’s someone’s private financial agreement Edited June 30 by THE DEAN MACHINE 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesHarris Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 2 minutes ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said: Do you want to know the colour of his underpants too ? Not being rude but those first 3 questions have nothing to do with you Fair enough but I'm just looking for average's not actual amounts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 2 minutes ago, JamesHarris said: Fair enough but I'm just looking for average's not actual amounts. Then ask the rider or the promoters themselves, if they tell you then great 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Sidney Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 26 minutes ago, JamesHarris said: Fair enough but I'm just looking for average's not actual amounts. All relevant questions. To most supporters those figures are a mystery and so you have no idea of the likely break even figure for a club. I presume any prospective promoter would be provided with an outline estimate of the likely costs of both set up and ongoing costs. I believe the clubs pay their own riders for both home and away matches, and so have to cover the away matches from income generated by home matches. It's one of the reasons clubs can have a cash flow problem- if they have too many away matches without sufficient home matches. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 8 minutes ago, Sir Sidney said: All relevant questions. To most supporters those figures are a mystery and so you have no idea of the likely break even figure for a club.. Would you like to tell us all on here how much your income is please because we would all like to know and all your outgoings, how much your pension plan is and any relevant financial dealings you have because we are nosey and feel it is our right to such information 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singy13 Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 41 minutes ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said: Do you want to know the colour of his underpants too ? Not being rude but those first 3 questions have nothing to do with you, it’s someone’s private financial agreement Private re the riders earnings - yes.........BUT it would be very interesting, and not so personal, to have evidence of speedway clubs attendances. It's something never divulged unless it's a pitifully small crowd (e.g.250) or as they call it 'a bumper crowd'...4000 maybe? I do think most clubs attain hundreds at meetings rather than thousands. It's not enough to keep the danger flags from flying for most outfits. How on earth does the enjoyable Speedway Star keep going given the lack of supporters nationwide? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singy13 Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 7 minutes ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said: Would you like to tell us all on here how much your income is please because we would all like to know and all your outgoings, how much your pension plan is and any relevant financial dealings you have because we are nosey and feel it is our right to such information Give over marra. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 (edited) 20 minutes ago, singy13 said: Private re the riders earnings - yes.........BUT it would be very interesting, and not so personal, to have evidence of speedway clubs attendances. It's something never divulged unless it's a pitifully small crowd (e.g.250) or as they call it 'a bumper crowd'...4000 maybe? I do think most clubs attain hundreds at meetings rather than thousands. It's not enough to keep the danger flags from flying for most outfits. How on earth does the enjoyable Speedway Star keep going given the lack of supporters nationwide? I said first 3 questions of which you agreed with and then posted give over marra? to me putting boot on other foot Edited June 30 by THE DEAN MACHINE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 (edited) I don't really think it breaks anybody's personal privacy to say a CL heat leader can expect to earn in the region of £xx,xxxx? It's all so cloak and dagger, smoke and mirrors. It's one of the few sports where earnings and prize monies are such closely guarded secrets. Sports such as golf and tennis are very open about these things. Edited June 30 by IainB 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShanoXtra Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 1 hour ago, Marksman said: I would advocate that, but the problem is alot of fans are fickle and would see a weakened team as one with no chance of winning, and wouldn't bother going. Which I think would be less of a case with Polish fans. I would beg to differ on this one. As a fan of stal Gorzów and someone who goes to the home matches when possible I’d say the lack of fire power this season has damaged their attendance 10 fold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 1 minute ago, IainB said: I don't really think it breaks anybody's personal privacy to say a CL heart leader can expect to earn in the region of £xx,xxxx? It's all so cloak and dagger, smoke and mirrors. It's one of the few sports where earnings and prize monies are such closely guarded secrets. Don’t be so niave, what you see in newspapers and on tv about footballers wages has no basis in reality, it’s said to create headlines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 10 minutes ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said: Don’t be so niave, what you see in newspapers and on tv about footballers wages has no basis in reality, it’s said to create headlines I was thinking more of Golf and Tennis but okay let's create some headlines, you must know, but as so many do in Speedway, close ranks when it comes to money? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 (edited) 14 minutes ago, IainB said: I was thinking more of Golf and Tennis but okay let's create some headlines, you must know, but as so many do in Speedway, close ranks when it comes to money? Not really, all you got to do is ask them , there is no closing ranks, I just think it’s nobody else’s business what riders earn that said speedway as it is now speedway can’t sustain it and having been on both sides of the fence I am trying to come up with ideas to keep both sides happy because as I see it that’s not what’s happening and no it isn’t my job to do it but I have little faith in the people who’s job it is, so if I can pass ideas on then maybe someone will listen, maybe not Edited June 30 by THE DEAN MACHINE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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