Averages

[steve roberts 9,246]

I actually admired the decision made by the BSPA, some years ago now, whereby riders acquired both home and away 'official' averages as well as an overall average. This system was put in place to make it fairer when teams chose a guest rider when replacing a missing one. The overall average of any particular rider often gives a false figure (based on the fact that most riders have a superior home average...unless you were Hans Nielsen!) and a guest can often strengthen the team he has been chosen to represent in an away fixture in particular. Unfortunately the concept proved difficult to grasp and was dropped after one (?) season.

 

Just one example (picked entirely at random) Marvyn Cox, of Oxford, in 1985 achieved a home BL average of 7.24 and an away average of 5.69. However a guest could have been used based on his overall average of 6.44.

 

I also remember a grading system that was once in operation but recall that it was fraught with problems.

 

PS Not wishing to head hunt but one glaring example was Vaclav Verner's (Exeter) average in 1977 (although Exeter's track would always produce examples of extremes due to its size and shape). Home average 10.90. Away average 6.62. Overall average 8.87.

Edited February 9, 2016 by steve roberts

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

I actually admired the decision made by the BSPA, some years ago now, whereby riders acquired both home and away 'official' averages as well as an overall average. This system was put in place to make it fairer when teams chose a guest rider when replacing a missing one. The overall average of any particular rider often gives a false figure (based on the fact that most riders have a superior home average...unless you were Hans Nielsen!) and a guest can often strengthen the team he has been chosen to represent in an away fixture in particular. Unfortunately the concept proved difficult to grasp and was dropped after one (?) season.

 

Just one example (picked entirely at random) Marvyn Cox, of Oxford, in 1985 achieved a home BL average of 7.24 and an away average of 5.69. However a guest could have been used based on his overall average of 6.44.

 

I also remember a grading system that was once in operation but recall that it was fraught with problems.

Steve what is your opinion of Bonus points? if someone scored 7 plus 3 from four for me that is as good as 10 points a team game why is bonus points not taken seriously.?

[steve roberts 9,246]

Steve what is your opinion of Bonus points? if someone scored 7 plus 3 from four for me that is as good as 10 points a team game why is bonus points not taken seriously.?

Hi Sidney!

 

Yes I'm a fan of bonus points. We know the reasons why it was introduced (I recall that payment of kind was removed at one time which caused some animosity amongst riders) Obviously the introduction of bonus points was to encourage a team ethic and not riders from the same team riding against each other. I was fortunate to watch Hans Nielsen who was, in my opinion, the best modern day rider when it came to team riding. Riders who unselfishly helped their partner to achieve the best possible result for the team putting personal gain to one side. Ronnie Moore, from a previous era, was a great exponent as was Ivan Mauger and a host of others I could name.

 

One reason I was never a great fan of Tony Rickardsson was that I never saw him team ride, or even look for his partner, during a race. I recently watched a video of him when racing for Poole and was dismayed at his lack of awareness regarding his partner...especially around turns one and two. I recall Peter Collins commenting that the advent of lay-down motors made it more difficult for riders to team ride due to the unpredictability of the bikes but riders, if they so desired, could manipulate the first bend to good effect if not necessarily attempting to team ride for the duration of a race.

 

As discussed on another thread I do feel that the advent of 'fixed gates' also makes team riding more difficult (it's difficult to dictate a race from the outside) but overall, certainly in my last years watching speedway, the art has been generally lost. Can't comment on racing today.

 

Whether bonus points should be included in the average of a rider is a debatable question. Again I agree with their inclusion (for the same reason as above) but it was interesting that another great exponent of the art, Ole Olsen, was always keen to go over the finishing line first after team riding with his partner!

 

Should bonus points attained during a meeting be added to the final score? Another argument entirely?

[Humphrey Appleby 13,955]

Whether bonus points should be included in the average of a rider is a debatable question.

They should not be included for overall team building, but should be included for the determining the heat-leader/second-string/reserves and guest purposes.

 

Should bonus points attained during a meeting be added to the final score? Another argument entirely?

The points system should be changed in team speedway so you only score points for finishing ahead of opposition riders. That then solves the problem of bonus points inflating averages and pay packets.

[pugwash 3,208]

Average per meeting or per race, no problem, it's all manipulative to Matt.

[lucifer sam 3,953]

 

 

Just one example (picked entirely at random) Marvyn Cox, of Oxford, in 1985 achieved a home BL average of 7.24 and an away average of 5.69. However a guest could have been used based on his overall average of 6.44.

 

 

Steve, Cocker was fourth in our averages for most of 1985 (he even spent one month at reserve, during which he broke the track record in Heat 2, because Hans had been shepherding around Mel Taylor in Heat 1 to a 5-1), so a guest couldn't have been used for him. Facilities for only available for the heat leaders - at Oxford in 1985, that was Hans Nielsen, Simon Wigg and Andy Grahame. Riders 4-7 in the averages had to be replaced with riders from the National League, which is how Alastair Stevens and Nigel De'ath had their spells in the limelight towards the end of that season, after Klaus Lausch was injured.

 

As for having home and away averages for guests, the year it was used was 2001. It enabled Oxford to use track specialist Martin Dugard in place of the injured Lukas Dryml. Not surprisingly, the Eastbourne No 1 romped to a maximum around his favourite track. It was one of these rules brought in with about five minutes thought, which was then dropped after a year because it clearly didn't work.

 

The current rule used for the last several seasons, average + 5% for guests for home meetings, works much better.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited February 9, 2016 by lucifer sam

[steve roberts 9,246]

 

Steve, Cocker was fourth in our averages for most of 1985 (he even spent one month at reserve, during which he broke the track record in Heat 2, because Hans had been shepherding around Mel Taylor in Heat 1 to a 5-1), so a guest couldn't have been used for him. Facilities for only available for the heat leaders - at Oxford in 1985, that was Hans Nielsen, Simon Wigg and Andy Grahame. Riders 4-7 in the averages had to be replaced with riders from the National League, which is how Alastair Stevens and Nigel De'ath had their spells in the limelight towards the end of that season, after Klaus Lausch was injured.

 

As for having home and away averages for guests, the year it was used was 2001. It enabled Oxford to use track specialist Martin Dugard in place of the injured Lukas Dryml. Not surprisingly, the Eastbourne No 1 romped to a maximum around his favourite track. It was one of these rules brought in with about five minutes thought, which was then dropped after a year because it clearly didn't work.

 

The current rule used for the last several seasons, average + 5% for guests for home meetings, works much better.

 

 

 

All the best

Rob

Hi Rob

 

I plucked Marvyn purely as an example as to how averages home, away and overall can differ which can lead to an unfairness when deciding on a guest replacement. I still feel that the initiative by the BSPA was the right one but which frankly caused problems when trying to administer same.

 

Vaclav's example highlights the ambiguity whereby his away average was poor compared to his home but his overall average would have proved an advantage when utilising the guest rule.

 

I can't remember the exact ruling but I'm guessing that a prospective guest's overall average was taken into consideration when replacing a rider? I'm assuming that Lukas Dryml's home average (haven't access to those statistics) was quite high at home which enabled Oxford the use of Martin Dugard as a Guest replacement?

Edited February 9, 2016 by steve roberts

[Hobnob Smith 77]

remember Oxford away to Coventry one year and Troy Butler was missing for some reason so we had Paul Thorpe guest in place of him, so we had Bradfords no 1 guesting for us with Butler only being a reserve for us (and with Thorpe hatred of Coventry) he got 15 pt max I believe ,ahh was a nice sunny day too

[lucifer sam 3,953]

 

 

I can't remember the exact ruling but I'm guessing that a prospective guest's overall average was taken into consideration when replacing a rider? I'm assuming that Lukas Dryml's home average (haven't access to those statistics) was quite high at home which enabled Oxford the use of Martin Dugard as a Guest replacement?

 

Steve, Lukas's home average was in excess of 9.00,so he was no slouch around Cowley. But it was an oddity that Martin Dugard could guest for him. There were other anomalies as well across the EL, with second strings and reserves being covered by heat leaders.

 

It didn't work, and that's why it only lasted one season.

 

All the best

Rob

[Daniel Smith 5,661]

Steve what is your opinion of Bonus points? if someone scored 7 plus 3 from four for me that is as good as 10 points a team game why is bonus points not taken seriously.?

A few years ago when there way a lot of team riding I'd agree. Today though I'd scrap bonus points all together as there's generally about 3-4 bike length difference between riders in 1st & 2nd most heats today.

[arnieg 3,641]

Including bonus points inflates the averages of middle order riders - with the current race format it would reduce even further the gap between number ones and number fives making the present farce worse still.

[lucifer sam 3,953]

The points system should be changed in team speedway so you only score points for finishing ahead of opposition riders. That then solves the problem of bonus points inflating averages and pay packets.

 

Humph, again I feel you're wanting to change things for the sheer sake of it. Personally I think having a scoring system of 2-2-0-0 for some races (for a 5-1) or 2-1-1-0 (a 4-2 or a 3-3) is only going to confuse things for the casual observer. 3-2-1-0 is simple and it works. If it ain't broke, then don't fix it.

 

Speedway's challenge is persuading the general public that a night of speedway is good entertainment and a good night out, compared to all the counter attractions. It's all about the show and what can be done to improve it, not about re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, by making pointless changes to averages and the scoring system.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited February 10, 2016 by lucifer sam

[Humphrey Appleby 13,955]

Humph, again I feel you're wanting to change things for the sheer sake of it. Personally I think having a scoring system of 2-2-0-0 for some races (for a 5-1) or 2-1-1-0 (a 4-2 or a 3-3) is only going to confuse things for the casual observer. 3-2-1-0 is simple and it works. If it ain't broke, then don't fix.

Not suggesting it's the top of the list of issues to address, but the system is broken. The 3-2-1-0 system doesn't encourage team riding, whilst bonus points inflate averages.

 

The casual observer already isn't going to get bonus points and many accepted aspects of the sport. I feel people would get used to team scoring fairly quickly.