2013 Best Ever Gp Line Up?

[BWitcher 12,453]

Sorry, I don't think I ever said that the One Off World Final was unfair - I actually believed it WAS fair until oldace put his contribution to the debate. Even now - I still prefer that System. It does, however appear that the 'old' System was not as Fair as I believed.

 

My point is,

 

you champion a one-off World Final because thats what sport is all about.. 'unpredictability'.... preferring that to a season long system.

 

you ridicule a play off system as you claim it impacts upon the credibility of the sport... and the champions should be those based on a season long system.

 

Massive contradiction.

Edited December 7, 2012 by BWitcher

[mickthemuppet 976]

Indeed the top five pooles in their league averages were their riders selected for the final. Why were they allowed nearly a third of the field is a complete mystery. There were only two English riders (Ray Wilson and Peter Collins) so not much has changed.

The 1973 final was certainly a one off. The Poles practised on the track.the day before.When the visiting riders saw it it was awful and still was for the final. with ruts all over the place. The refereeing was completely inconsistant excluding Anders Michanek for a tape offence yet two races later the tapes were broken four times but nobody was excluded.The four Poles in heat 16 contrived to let Zenon Plech win so helping him to secure 3rd place . The refereeing was having a nightmare.

. Peter Collins was hit by Plech in heat 19 on the first lap.but the race was not stopped then although it was on the 4th lap when Chlynovski bought down Plech. Then the race was awarded to Peter Collins who was out of the race at the time. .So the order of finish was decided on the positions the riders were in before the end of the first lap.

Very odd meeting for a world final.

[The White Knight 9,039]

My point is,

 

you champion a one-off World Final because thats what sport is all about.. 'unpredictability'.... preferring that to a season long system.

 

you ridicule a play off system as you claim it impacts upon the credibility of the sport... and the champions should be those based on a season long system.

 

Massive contradiction.

 

No, not really - two totally different Competitions. I always thought that the idea of a League was to WIN it over a Season. The 'Play Offs' add nothing to the Sport as a Sport - they just make money for the Promoters. I have nothing against Promoters earning money - but - I feel that they should do it in a way that does not bastardise the idea of the League Championship.

 

The clue is in the name - League Championship.

 

As for the 'One Off' World Final, you are right, I do champion it over the GP System because of it's unpredictability - that has nothing to do with the League though. You are entitled to have a different view on each Competition because differing Rules apply.

[BWitcher 12,453]

Totally flawed WK, you are preaching a totally different argument for each one, effectively defeating yourself as you do it.

 

The reality is.. you want things how they were back in the day, that is quite simply all there is to it.

[E I Addio 15,849]

Sczakiel QUALIFIED Woofinden didn't - GAME SET AND MATCH to me - I think.

 

Oh - and Sczakiel was a worthy Champion ON THAT DAY!!!

No, Ian the 1973 World Final run-off was the biggest stitch up in the history of speedway. In front of 140,000 Poles there was no way a Pole would be prevented from winning. That was the meeting when Dave Lanning made his famous comment that the Poles were making up the rules as they went along. He was not reprimanded for that so one must accept the validity of it. Look at the youtube clip. The riders approach the tapes, the start marshal doesn't even put the riders under starter orders when the Pole rolls forward and the referee lets the tapes go giving the Pole a flyer and catching the usually sharp gating Mauger by surprise. The Polish attitude is shown after the crash: Mauger is lying unconscious on the track and for all anybody knew at that stage his life could have been hanging in the balance but the race was not stopped but instead the Pole, in a disgraceful display of triumphalism allows his bike to drift wide on the next lap, missing the medics bu inches and showering the unconscious Mauger and the medics with shale. That meeting was the beginning of the end for the old one-off World Final.www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQplGWLW7Zw (EDIT if it won't come up just type 1973 World Final run-off -Youtube in your search engine and you should get it.)

Edited December 7, 2012 by E I Addio

[oldace 1,678]

No, Ian the 1973 World Final run-off was the biggest stitch up in the history of speedway. In front of 140,000 Poles there was no way a Pole would be prevented from winning. That was the meeting when Dave Lanning made his famous comment that the Poles were making up the rules as they went along. He was not reprimanded for that so one must accept the validity of it. Look at the youtube clip. The riders approach the tapes, the start marshal doesn't even put the riders under starter orders when the Pole rolls forward and the referee lets the tapes go giving the Pole a flyer and catching the usually sharp gating Mauger by surprise. The Polish attitude is shown after the crash: Mauger is lying unconscious on the track and for all anybody knew at that stage his life could have been hanging in the balance but the race was not stopped but instead the Pole, in a disgraceful display of triumphalism allows his bike to drift wide on the next lap, missing the medics bu inches and showering the unconscious Mauger and the medics with shale. That meeting was the beginning of the end for the old one-off World Final.www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQplGWLW7Zw (EDIT if it won't come up just type 1973 World Final run-off -Youtube in your search engine and you should get it.)

 

Pretty accurate description although Ivan wasn't unconscious, he wasn't even hurt, other than his pride, and pocket.

 

The whole thing was really set up for Zenon Plech but he blew it, in stepped the back up plan in Szackiel and the rest is history.

[The White Knight 9,039]

Totally flawed WK, you are preaching a totally different argument for each one, effectively defeating yourself as you do it.

 

The reality is.. you want things how they were back in the day, that is quite simply all there is to it.

 

Have I ever said I didn't? You are right.

 

With hindsight - in Speedway, things were very much better in those days (60's and 70's in my memory). THAT is my opinion and I am entitled to it.

 

There are so many things that are wrong with Speedway these days, it is little surprise to me that crowds are drifting away from the Sport. I have argued my point over most of them at some point or another on this Forum and will continue to do so.

 

I realise that to some I am a Dinosaur - but - I am truly greatful that I was around to see Speedway in the GOOD days.

[lucifer sam 3,955]

No, Ian the 1973 World Final run-off was the biggest stitch up in the history of speedway. In front of 140,000 Poles there was no way a Pole would be prevented from winning. That was the meeting when Dave Lanning made his famous comment that the Poles were making up the rules as they went along. He was not reprimanded for that so one must accept the validity of it. Look at the youtube clip. The riders approach the tapes, the start marshal doesn't even put the riders under starter orders when the Pole rolls forward and the referee lets the tapes go giving the Pole a flyer and catching the usually sharp gating Mauger by surprise. The Polish attitude is shown after the crash: Mauger is lying unconscious on the track and for all anybody knew at that stage his life could have been hanging in the balance but the race was not stopped but instead the Pole, in a disgraceful display of triumphalism allows his bike to drift wide on the next lap, missing the medics bu inches and showering the unconscious Mauger and the medics with shale. That meeting was the beginning of the end for the old one-off World Final.www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQplGWLW7Zw (EDIT if it won't come up just type 1973 World Final run-off -Youtube in your search engine and you should get it.)

 

The ref (Transpurger) allowed shocking starts throughout both the 1972 and 1973 finals - he basically released the tapes as the final rider came up to them. Mauger himself used to his advantage at Wembley in 1972.

 

I'm not sure why it suddenly becomes "the biggest stitch up in speedway history" when it's Szczakiel who gets a flier rather than Mauger.

 

Fair play to Szczakiel who was the best rider.... on the day. The "dodgy" heats (the Poles orchestrating a win for Plech, plus the bizzare shennanings of Heat 19) did not involve Szczakiel, who earned all 13 of his points. In his fourth race, the Russian pushed Szczakiel to the back, but he fought back from fourth to second place.

 

Szczakiel outfoxed Mauger and beat him TWICE in the same World Final.

 

To highlight just one race where there was a dodgy start in the '72-'73 finals demonstrates you haven't watch the full coverage of these finals. If so, you'd have seen a number or riders using them to their advantage. Szczakiel beat Mauger at his own game... and deserves credit for that. From reading Mauger's autobiography, he has no axe to grind with Szczakiel.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited December 8, 2012 by lucifer sam

[E I Addio 15,849]

The ref (Transpurger) allowed shocking starts throughout both the 1972 and 1973 finals - he basically released the tapes as the final rider came up to them. Mauger himself used to his advantage at Wembley in 1972.

 

I'm not sure why it suddenly becomes "the biggest stitch up in speedway history" when it's Szczakiel who gets a flier rather than Mauger.

 

Fair play to Szczakiel who was the best rider.... on the day. The "dodgy" heats (the Poles orchestrating a win for Plech, plus the bizzare shennanings of Heat 19) did not involve Szczakiel, who earned all 13 of his points. In his fourth race, the Russian pushed Szczakiel to the back, but he fought back from fourth to second place.

 

Szczakiel outfoxed Mauger and beat him TWICE in the same World Final.

 

To highlight just one race where there was a dodgy start in the '72-'73 finals demonstrates you haven't watch the full coverage of these finals. If so, you'd have seen a number or riders using them to their advantage. Szczakiel beat Mauger at his own game... and deserves credit for that. From reading Mauger's autobiography, he has no axe to grind with Szczakiel.

 

All the best

Rob

That's not quite the point of the discussion. The rules require that the starting marshall and the referee ensure that there is a fair and equal start. You may take the view if you wish, that its OK to play the odds on getting a roller but frankly when we are talking about a run -off to decide the highest honour in speedway I think most fans would want to see the best rider win, not the one who takes advantage of a dodgy starting procedure that did not comply with the requirement for a fair and equal start. We all know about Polish referee's even in modern times.. The real point of the debate is not Mauger -v-Szczakiel but the One-off World Final -v- the GP system. My point is that there will always be questionable refereeing decisions but a GP series evens out the luck element. If you take a couple of modern examples riders like Antonio Lindback and Freddie Lindgren are capable of winning a GP but few , if any fans would argue they could genuinely be regarded as World Champions, at least not yet anyway.

For me the Szczakiel win was the start of a slide that was compounded by Egon Muller's 1983 win and made the case for a GP system with rounds in each country.

[stratton 1,491]

Muller thou was understated, a class speedway rider who had ample practice time at Norden.For me Lee should of won his second title messed up but really Billy the kid could of won it Egon muller was a class act like Wiggy a great overall motorcyclist.!

[BWitcher 12,453]

Have I ever said I didn't? You are right.

 

With hindsight - in Speedway, things were very much better in those days (60's and 70's in my memory). THAT is my opinion and I am entitled to it.

 

There are so many things that are wrong with Speedway these days, it is little surprise to me that crowds are drifting away from the Sport. I have argued my point over most of them at some point or another on this Forum and will continue to do so.

 

I realise that to some I am a Dinosaur - but - I am truly greatful that I was around to see Speedway in the GOOD days.

 

Finally...

 

Yet what you fail to realise is WK... Speedway is in the state that it is because it HASN'T moved on from the 70's.

[The White Knight 9,039]

That's not quite the point of the discussion. The rules require that the starting marshall and the referee ensure that there is a fair and equal start. You may take the view if you wish, that its OK to play the odds on getting a roller but frankly when we are talking about a run -off to decide the highest honour in speedway I think most fans would want to see the best rider win, not the one who takes advantage of a dodgy starting procedure that did not comply with the requirement for a fair and equal start. We all know about Polish referee's even in modern times.. The real point of the debate is not Mauger -v-Szczakiel but the One-off World Final -v- the GP system. My point is that there will always be questionable refereeing decisions but a GP series evens out the luck element. If you take a couple of modern examples riders like Antonio Lindback and Freddie Lindgren are capable of winning a GP but few , if any fans would argue they could genuinely be regarded as World Champions, at least not yet anyway.

For me the Szczakiel win was the start of a slide that was compounded by Egon Muller's 1983 win and made the case for a GP system with rounds in each country.

 

I'm sorry - but I simply cannot agree with that statement. Most Supporters would like to see their own Favourite Rider win the World Final - same in the GPs. If your favourite Rider doesn't win then you don't really worry too much.

 

Mauger himself was the MASTER of conning Riders at the Gate. A lot of Riders were beaten before the Race ever started by Ivan. I site the 1972 Run Off as an example - Ivan Mauger messed around at the Star that much that he TOTALLY out psyched Bernt Persson. When the Tapes eventually went up Persson was left for dead. As far as Sczakiel is concerned - he out thought the Master on that day and won. Had Ivan been a bit more patient and waited before attempting to pass when he did - he could have still won - he didn't and he lost.

 

On the day Jerzy Sczakiel WAS the best Rider in the World.

[stratton 1,491]

Ivan lost that title in1973, through his own mistake swings and roundabouts really, no one ever says that Ivan was very lucky in 1972 he was! Briggs crash and also Olsen,s fall gifted him the title but that was the beauty of the one off final.Out of the years of the one off finals mostly the right riders won maybe not always in the right year?.I went to Norden Muller was the best rider on the day no doubt about it Lee and Sanders had there chances but didn't take them.

[iris123 21,059]

I'm sorry - On the day Jerzy Sczakiel WAS the best Rider in the World.

I don't know how you can say that when some riders weren't even allowed to enter the world championship system because of their country of birth!!!

[PHILIPRISING 7,298]

SURELY we want the World Champion to be the best rider of the year not just a given day.