Bruce Penhall

[Dave the Mic 258]

I have to be honest, I am not too interested in who was at fault as you can't change it anyway, but how any of you can make a call based on any internet footage is a bit beyond me, as it is so grainy & poor. Or are you watching a clearer version?

[stratton 1,491]

After all these years i have often thought if only Ivan could of said to Kenny maybe if you have to settle for second place don't overide?Who knows he might of been in a run/off for the title,things could of been so much differenct for me Penhall was so lucky that night.What needled me though that he showed no real sorriness after, just smugness he went down alot in my estimation that night a great rider no doubt but i would take Scott Autrey as a favourite over him all day long.

Edited December 16, 2015 by sidney

[Grachan 7,362]

The contact I see is right at the end, on the exit of the turn and entry to the straight, when Carter’s front wheel brushes Penhall’s back wheel, as Carter is already on the way down.

 

Are you seeing the knock of the handlebar at the point that Carter says there is contact? (although, as you mention, Carter’s description is somewhat misleading to say the least!). I’ve replayed several times (it’s around halfway around the second bend ) and can’t see a thing that suggests contact at that point, even when watching Carter's handlebar.

 

It’s ironic, they bash into each other several times before that, the last being the entry to the first turn, but Carter comes off without any contact until he’s already on the way down. He really got himself into completely the wrong position.

 

All the best

Rob

What are you watching on? If you are watching on Youtube you're not going to see it.

 

I've no idea when Kenny Carter says there is contact, other than the "leg" thing, which is clearly wrong. As I've said, the contact with the handlebars is when Bruce's back wheel flips out. Whatever other factrs are taken into account, the thing that causes Carter to actually fall is Penhall's back wheel swiping his handlebars.

 

You will need good quality footage to see it, though. And the one on Youtube with American commentry cuts views at exactly the moment to make you miss it.

 

Keep watching, Rob.

 

 

If you read Tragedy, it is clear that Carter's actions in murdering his wife and then committing suicide were in no way planned or premeditated - he simply acted in the heat of the moment given the circumstances at the time.

 

That in no way excuses what he did and it remains as awful now as it was then. The only thing is to commit an act of extreme violence in temper is something that each and everyone of us is capable of.

On the contrary. I did read the book and there is an indication in there that it was, to some degree, pre-meditated.

[Paulsmith 14]

I want to bring back the one off world final . Who wants to join me in my crusade

[Terry 1,319]

After all these years i have often thought if only Ivan could of said to Kenny maybe if you have to settle for second place don't overide?Who knows he might of been in a run/off for the title,things could of been so much differenct for me Penhall was so lucky that night.What needled me though that he showed no real sorriness after, just smugness he went down alot in my estimation that night a great rider no doubt but i would take Scott Autrey as a favourite over him all day long.

 

Carter would still have had to have beaten Penhall as Peter Collins was leading the race.

Why would Penhall show any remorse? He'd just won the world championship, he wasn't going to care how Carter was feeling.

(I assume you're talking about the world final and not the overseas final!)

 

 

 

 

The main blot on Tore Kittilsen's record was the 1979 World Paris Final... not the 1982 World Final.

 

All the best

Rob

 

Eddie Jancarz definitely split the Danes. I think it was Olsen raising his arm as he crossed the line that influenced the referee's decision.

[lucifer sam 3,953]

 

Eddie Jancarz definitely split the Danes. I think it was Olsen raising his arm as he crossed the line that influenced the referee's decision.

 

Yes, plus Olsen grabbing Nielsen by the hand at the beginning of the slow-down lap, and the crowd then celebrating.

 

Kittilsen was conned by Ole on that occasion.

 

All the best

Rob

[Guest]

What rot you talk. Muller was a class act. In the 81 World Final to name one meeting, he scored 9 points in a very competitive field on a track hardly suited to his style, In addition, in an albeit short spell with Hull in 1976 he averaged 8.75. There were many riders who "some" would regard as more deserving of a place in a final who got nowhere near that at any time. Muller was not handed the title on a plate - there were some good riders in the world then (many more than now) & he whipped them all as if it were men against boys. Own back yard or not, he was still a very worthy champion.

 

As for Szczakiel, check out the 1971 World Pairs Final - unbeaten, Look at the riders he beat. In addition, you should perhaps be aware of Ivan Mauger's opinion of him. Even Ivan who must have been gutted, said he was a worthy champion & with the greatest of respect, I would take his opinion over yours any day of the week.

 

In addition your argument holds no water. You state the old system was unfair, the new one not. If the argument is that riders who should not have been there were, thus devaluing the meeting, I would say three things. First, I went to many "one off" world finals & have been to many GP's too. The atmosphere at World Finals was generally second to none & the anticipation leading up to the meeting, knowing that you would see the champion crowned that night couldn't be beaten. In addition, part of the interest then was seeing some big names fall by the wayside in the qualifiers, or knowing one incident could change the context of the meeting.

 

Second, if the old system was so unfair because here were "no hopers" in the field, what do you call most (that's most) of the wild card riders today? What is the difference between them & the likes of Muller or Szczakiel being nominated by their home federation? Answer: none.

 

The reality is, bot the old & new system have their flaws & benefits, not everyone will be happy, however, your particular argument is flawed, because in some ways the same thing exists now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Szczakiel

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mauger

 

The Ivan Mauger - Jerzy Szczakiiel race record over 13 clashes:

Mauger had seven wins Szczakiel had six wins.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Guest

[stratton 1,491]

Carter would still have had to have beaten Penhall as Peter Collins was leading the race.

Why would Penhall show any remorse? He'd just won the world championship, he wasn't going to care how Carter was feeling.

(I assume you're talking about the world final and not the overseas final!)

 

 

 

Eddie Jancarz definitely split the Danes. I think it was Olsen raising his arm as he crossed the line that influenced the referee's decision.

But thirteen points as Carter had six i think coming up to the Penhall race might have been anough for a run/off or second place? there certainly would of been more pressure on Penhall in his last race.What i am saying is PENHALL was always going to get a homers verdict i am sure Carter knew there race would be tough one and he was very unlucky in my book.Was Penhall lucky i think so, he did annoy me when he left speedway but that was his right to do so but i still say in 82 he was a lucky champion similar to when Hans brought Knudsen off.!!!

[lucifer sam 3,953]

he was a lucky champion similar to when Hans brought Knudsen off.!!!

 

Now you're talking nonsense, young Sidney.

 

Definite contact in 1986, but it came about because the already passed Knudsen cut back in. There's a camera angle from the Danish TV coverage which shows just how much Knudsen cut back across the track. An attempt to bolt the stable door after the horse had already bolted, with the inevitable consequences.

 

Nielsen's exclusion in the 1993 final was correct, because he drifted across the track and hit Ermolenko. In '86, Hans kept it tight, only for TK to cut back in.

 

All the best

Rob

[Terry 1,319]

But thirteen points as Carter had six i think coming up to the Penhall race might have been anough for a run/off or second place? there certainly would of been more pressure on Penhall in his last race.What i am saying is PENHALL was always going to get a homers verdict i am sure Carter knew there race would be tough one and he was very unlucky in my book.Was Penhall lucky i think so, he did annoy me when he left speedway but that was his right to do so but i still say in 82 he was a lucky champion similar to when Hans brought Knudsen off.!!!

 

If Carter had come third, it would've been some race between him and Les Collins to meet Penhall in a run-off.

It was a shame that Bruce retired so early. I watched some of those CHiPs episodes he was in, and he didn't even play a lead character!

True enough regarding Hans steaming under Tommy. He wasn't so lucky when he did it to Sam 7 years later though!

[Gavan 5,050]

Quite blatant that Nielsen knocked off Knudsen and Ermolenko.

 

Hans could get like that when he got desperate.

 

I remember a gp (and its on the Loramski the legend dvd) where they were scrapping for a point and Nielsen just kept delibertaly blocking Loram and almost knocked him off twice. Mark passed him on the last lap and going over the line turned his head and gave him a long stare and lets be fair thats the only time ive seen Mark rattled by dirty riding on the track.

 

Regards Muller. He was a good rider but lets be fair would never have been a world champion in 1983 or any other year if the final hadnt been held in Germany and the fact it was suspected to be an engine slightly over 500cc lol

[BWitcher 12,453]

 

 

Nielsen's exclusion in the 1993 final was correct, because he drifted across the track and hit Ermolenko. In '86, Hans kept it tight, only for TK to cut back in.

 

All the best

Rob

 

That's a very honest assessment Rob, most Nielsen fans I know swear blind he shouldn't have been excluded.

[Guest]

 

Regards Muller. He was a good rider but lets be fair would never have been a world champion in 1983 or any other year if the final hadnt been held in Germany and the fact it was suspected to be an engine slightly over 500cc lol

 

I have ever heard this allegation about Egon Muller before. But out of interest, just what difference is needed to put an engine 'obersize' for it to make any real difference? Anyway aren't the engines of riders taking main places at world finals checked immediately after the race?

Basically, I think this matter is put forward because nobody wants to accept that Muller won the world championship and there's continued recourse to find ways to discredit what was a simply brilliant performance by the German ace?

[iris123 20,996]

To be honest I have heard a rumour from within Germany,from an "insider"(who wasn't there and probably because of the Berlin Wall never saw Egon much, if at all,)that Egon did cheat that day in Norden.It wasn't though anything to do with his engine being bigger or smaller or whatever.It was something to do with his exhaust.Who knows.I kinda think that most people cheated or would have with the know-how and confidence or determination.Look around at the sporting world and even people wh I thought would be above cheating like Beckenbauer are now being accused or dirty dealings.Nothing surprises me any more

[The White Knight 9,039]

What rot you talk. Muller was a class act. In the 81 World Final to name one meeting, he scored 9 points in a very competitive field on a track hardly suited to his style, In addition, in an albeit short spell with Hull in 1976 he averaged 8.75. There were many riders who "some" would regard as more deserving of a place in a final who got nowhere near that at any time. Muller was not handed the title on a plate - there were some good riders in the world then (many more than now) & he whipped them all as if it were men against boys. Own back yard or not, he was still a very worthy champion.

 

As for Szczakiel, check out the 1971 World Pairs Final - unbeaten, Look at the riders he beat. In addition, you should perhaps be aware of Ivan Mauger's opinion of him. Even Ivan who must have been gutted, said he was a worthy champion & with the greatest of respect, I would take his opinion over yours any day of the week.

 

In addition your argument holds no water. You state the old system was unfair, the new one not. If the argument is that riders who should not have been there were, thus devaluing the meeting, I would say three things. First, I went to many "one off" world finals & have been to many GP's too. The atmosphere at World Finals was generally second to none & the anticipation leading up to the meeting, knowing that you would see the champion crowned that night couldn't be beaten. In addition, part of the interest then was seeing some big names fall by the wayside in the qualifiers, or knowing one incident could change the context of the meeting.

 

Second, if the old system was so unfair because here were "no hopers" in the field, what do you call most (that's most) of the wild card riders today? What is the difference between them & the likes of Muller or Szczakiel being nominated by their home federation? Answer: none.

 

The reality is, bot the old & new system have their flaws & benefits, not everyone will be happy, however, your particular argument is flawed, because in some ways the same thing exists now.

You beat me to it Dave. I was going to mention those two facts also.

 

For me Jerzy Szczakiel was a very good but very inconsistant Rider. He deserved to win in 1973.

 

On the night - Mauger couldn't beat him - he probably would have nine times out of ten but the fact is - he didn't.

 

Jerzy ended up with two World Titles and I do not begrudge him either of them. I think much of the criticism of him is rather unfair.

 

Well done Jerzy is all I can say.

 

 

 

After all these years i have often thought if only Ivan could of said to Kenny maybe if you have to settle for second place don't overide?Who knows he might of been in a run/off for the title,things could of been so much differenct for me Penhall was so lucky that night.What needled me though that he showed no real sorriness after, just smugness he went down alot in my estimation that night a great rider no doubt but i would take Scott Autrey as a favourite over him all day long.

Scott Autrey was my favourite Anerican Rider too sidney.