leander 495 Posted November 4, 2016 Doubling up will kill speedway if someone rides both leagues how many meetings is that per week on average? Doubling up is not new. When I first started to watch in 1975/76 I seem to remember the Owen brothers "guesting" for 1st division Hull on numerous occasions. I agree the rules regarding it need looking at tho. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StevePark 2,783 Posted November 4, 2016 Doubling up is not new. When I first started to watch in 1975/76 I seem to remember the Owen brothers "guesting" for 1st division Hull on numerous occasions. I agree the rules regarding it need looking at tho. That was because Ian Thomas ran both clubs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leander 495 Posted November 4, 2016 That was because Ian Thomas ran both clubs. True. But it was still a sort of doubling up . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
woofers 467 Posted November 4, 2016 (edited) Doubling up is not new. When I first started to watch in 1975/76 I seem to remember the Owen brothers "guesting" for 1st division Hull on numerous occasions. I agree the rules regarding it need looking at tho. That was because Ian Thomas ran both clubs. True. But it was still a sort of doubling up .Never ceases to amaze me how almost every thread has to get a reference back to how speedway operated umpteen years ago.And these quotes only name one team but the posters know "both clubs" from 40 years ago! Perhaps riders have to ride for more than one club to earn a living ? A lot of posters on this forum seem to think the riders are overpaid and the admission prices too high. Can't see how lower both would enable a rider to earn a living in today's world, maybe people think speedway riders should just be talented amateurs ? Anyway, back to the present, and back on topic, has anyone any idea what Chris Louis was on about, my post about 3 pages back refers. Thanks Edited November 4, 2016 by woofers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shale Searcher 1,264 Posted November 4, 2016 Never ceases to amaze me how almost every thread has to get a reference back to how speedway operated umpteen years ago. And these quotes only name one team but the posters know "both clubs" from 40 years ago! Perhaps riders have to ride for more than one club to earn a living ? A lot of posters on this forum seem to think the riders are overpaid and the admission prices too high. Can't see how lower both would enable a rider to earn a living in today's world, maybe people think speedway riders should just be talented amateurs ? Anyway, back to the present, and back on topic, has anyone any idea what Chris Louis was on about, my post about 3 pages back refers. Thanks Perhaps "Professional Riders" should be a title to aspire to... Maybe riders that race in the SGP are the "Total Pro's' and maybe the riders from a Countries top divisions also... Then, the second division, well these perhaps are the "Semi-Pro" riders, ride regularly for their club, but also hold down another job/income stream..... And then you're into novice/my first league type of set up, young inexperienced riders, who have full time jobs, and ride weekends only..... Just starting out and the income from speedway is a small % of their total income.. Any level below this would and should be at the unpaid "hobby" level...... (MDL) as an example.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
THE DEAN MACHINE 4,755 Posted November 4, 2016 Perhaps riders have to ride for more than one club to earn a living ? A lot of posters on this forum seem to think the riders are overpaid and the admission prices too high. Can't see how lower both would enable a rider to earn a living in today's world, maybe people think speedway riders should just be talented amateurs perhaps you missed the bit where riders are owed money all over the place because the money isn't there , nobody is saying they are overpaid just that the money isn't there with the current crowd levels and to get the crowds coming back you need to dangle the temptation carrot and the first point of call is always price ,sorry It doesn't make pleasant reading but niether does the headlines of clubs going bust 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Humphrey Appleby 13,960 Posted November 4, 2016 Speedway must be the only sport where more riders are paid (at least to some extent) than those who do it for fun. It still amazes me that British speedway can sustain any full-time professionals on the crowds and limited other sources of revenue it's getting, but I'd be surprised if it's still the case 5 years from now. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Froglord 7 Posted November 5, 2016 Some of the big 'ideas' that were mentioned many times by promoters in the press over the last 12 months haven't been mentioned at all. I'm referring to the squad system, apparently to attract back big names; one or two race nights for top flight clubs and the issue of guests. Can anyone shed any light on these topics? Cheers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martinmauger 584 Posted November 5, 2016 Doubling up is not new. When I first started to watch in 1975/76 I seem to remember the Owen brothers "guesting" for 1st division Hull on numerous occasions. I agree the rules regarding it need looking at tho. True, but not as many meetings as these days, more clubs & more matches in those days. Think (without checking progs) Hull could only use either Owen say 8 times I remember dispensation was applied to BSPA / SCB for to use Joe for most of the season(s) but it was refused. Agree with the point though: not enough riders to go round and the number doubling, and even tripling up, is too many.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
g13webb 4,254 Posted November 5, 2016 No riders, no fans is the same thing. Wow !! you're missing the point here. A big point... The riders are financed by the fans and the paying public, if there were no FANS and support, then riders would not have the facility to race. Whereas if there were no riders the fans would spend their monies in supporting other ways. The finances dictate the importance of the situation. A riders needs the fans input, Its the supporter who has the deciding choice....... I understand the importance of D/U but implementing it causes many problems. I get the impression every rider wants to race in as many matches as possible. This obviously has its draw backs and effect the riders body and soul. How can he possibly give 100% to every race would he is feeling tired and knackered. But their availability is the governing factor. With the best will in the world there will always be fixture clashes where the parent club takes preference, but if we introduced a rule where there was not guests or RR allowed for these D/U absentees probably clubs would look at DU in a different light. I'm just trying to eliminate the need for Guests and RR except as the extreme emergency cover..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CookieIpswich 249 Posted November 5, 2016 This is why a Northern and Southern split with 6 rider teams built to a 38 point limit would have been perfect thats 120 riders which would have included all current EL riders even the GP ones if they wanted to stay up while promoting the top end of the national league, there were enough riders to make this happen with zero doubling up. Yeah guests would still be required but you could limit the number of appearances and only get guests from the opposite region so fans don't see the same riders recycled. Speedway have once again papered over the cracks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halifaxtiger 5,318 Posted November 5, 2016 Doubling up is not new. When I first started to watch in 1975/76 I seem to remember the Owen brothers "guesting" for 1st division Hull on numerous occasions. I agree the rules regarding it need looking at tho. You're right, it isn't. Andy Grahame in 1979 is a very good example : he rode the entire season for Birmingham & Milton Keynes. However, as Brian has said its now 'out of control'. You can stomach it with one or maybe two riders, but many have no less than four. Belle Vue : Worrall brothers, Cook, Jacobs. Glasgow : Lawson, Summers, Worrall, Ayres. Somerset : Tungate, Grajczonek, Wright, Starke, Wajtknecht. That's simply too many and means that the use of guests and rider replacement has exploded. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,246 Posted November 5, 2016 (edited) You're right, it isn't. Andy Grahame in 1979 is a very good example : he rode the entire season for Birmingham & Milton Keynes. However, as Brian has said its now 'out of control'. You can stomach it with one or maybe two riders, but many have no less than four. Belle Vue : Worrall brothers, Cook, Jacobs. Glasgow : Lawson, Summers, Worrall, Ayres. Somerset : Tungate, Grajczonek, Wright, Starke, Wajtknecht. That's simply too many and means that the use of guests and rider replacement has exploded. Doubling up has been going on for years. When I first attended speedway in 1972 many British League Division One promotions had interests in Division Two and riders often 'doubled up' between the leagues. My team, Oxford and later White City, adopted this system regularly with the likes of Ballard, Kennett, Davis, Gachet, Weatherley, Sampson etc and it was a way of introducing talent gradually before committing to a full season in the upper discipline. Edited November 5, 2016 by steve roberts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,292 Posted November 5, 2016 (edited) Having more teams in the top league than both Poland and Sweden does seem strange when people then state it's a struggle to get riders!! Surely an eight team top division would mean more riders to replace injured or underperforming team members without the need for guests and loads of DU's? Same for the second division. Why ten teams? Again eight would have released several riders to be available to replace others.. The current 19 team situation means you need to fill 133 positions.. A sixteen team two league structure would only need 112.... Even better possibly would be to run with six man teams and only need 96 riders in a sixteen team structure..? No DU's (particularly with promotion and relegation), and No Guests would mean real credibility.. Wouldn't that be good to see in (British) Speedway? You can guarantee that there will be teams who will struggle from day one due to their team strength. It will adversly effect attendances at both their track and when they go away, and this time next year they will be facing an uncertain future. Simply because they were allowed to compete in a league their infrastructure couldn't afford and had to use 'anyone who looked like he could ride a bike' to fill some of their seven places. Seems a strange plan to set teams up to fail thru a lack of riders at the start of the season and then even less being available to replace underperformers and injuries. Edited November 5, 2016 by mikebv Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gresham 928 Posted November 5, 2016 I'm not sure whether this has been covered in another post...but the 'doubling up'...surely is just a way to allow certain riders to make a living, if they are not riding abroad? With the costs of running speedway bikes...is it possible for a rider to make a living, riding for just one team in this country? What also crossed my mind, regarding doubling up...how would it work if the two play off teams for promotion and relegation next season, were in a similar situation to what Swindon and Somerset were this season? If Swindon had finished bottom and Somerset had to race them for Promotion, how would that work? Who would ride for what team? How could you bring in other riders to replace the double ups without making a farce of the sport? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
