steve roberts 9,246 Posted May 10, 2017 Halifax Tiger, I accept what you are saying to a degree. There has been doubling up since 1968 when the Second Division was reintroduced but it was on a limited scale and, as you say, it has got out of hand. Craig Cook being captain of Belle Vue and Workington is unacceptable and riders missing meetings because they are riding for other clubs is damaging integrity. Try explaining to a newcomer that Sheffield have borrowed Richard Lawson from Glasgow to replace Josh Grajczonek as he is riding for Somerset! I don't think that the football comparison stands up. The away goals rule (which I think is the one you are referring to) is only used to separate teams in two legged cup matches that have tied on aggregate. A more accurate comparison would be for a team that was 3-0 down in a game to nominate their next goal to count as two. Can you imagine the uproar in football if that was suggested. ...now that would be interesting! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skid Sprocket 243 Posted May 10, 2017 ...now that would be interesting! Its football, how could it be interesting? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted May 10, 2017 Halifax Tiger, I accept what you are saying to a degree. There has been doubling up since 1968 when the Second Division was reintroduced but it was on a limited scale and, as you say, it has got out of hand. Craig Cook being captain of Belle Vue and Workington is unacceptable and riders missing meetings because they are riding for other clubs is damaging integrity. Try explaining to a newcomer that Sheffield have borrowed Richard Lawson from Glasgow to replace Josh Grajczonek as he is riding for Somerset! I don't think that the football comparison stands up. The away goals rule (which I think is the one you are referring to) is only used to separate teams in two legged cup matches that have tied on aggregate. A more accurate comparison would be for a team that was 3-0 down in a game to nominate their next goal to count as two. Can you imagine the uproar in football if that was suggested. Great Post tigerowl. Especially your last sentence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halifaxtiger 5,318 Posted May 10, 2017 Halifax Tiger, I accept what you are saying to a degree. There has been doubling up since 1968 when the Second Division was reintroduced but it was on a limited scale and, as you say, it has got out of hand. Craig Cook being captain of Belle Vue and Workington is unacceptable and riders missing meetings because they are riding for other clubs is damaging integrity. Try explaining to a newcomer that Sheffield have borrowed Richard Lawson from Glasgow to replace Josh Grajczonek as he is riding for Somerset! I don't think that the football comparison stands up. The away goals rule (which I think is the one you are referring to) is only used to separate teams in two legged cup matches that have tied on aggregate. A more accurate comparison would be for a team that was 3-0 down in a game to nominate their next goal to count as two. Can you imagine the uproar in football if that was suggested. The problem with your view is that it looks at speedway solely through the eyes of a football fan. You can't do that and have to judge each sport on its own merits and make a decision as to whether the rules it has are reasonable given the conditions that exist. Imagine having a rule in speedway where certain riders were only allowed on certain parts of the track and dependent on where the opposition were. That would be bloody ridiculous; in football its called offside. My real point is that you simply can't make a judgement about speedway's regulations based upon football and vice versa. They are so totally different any attempt to do so would be ludicrous. A football fan might find guests, rider replacement and tactical rides bizarre, but that is because the concept is totally alien to them. There are sound reasons why speedway has all three and has had them for half a century. You're right about the away goals rule and I also think your comparison is correct. The fact is, though, is that football has a regulation by which one goal counts as two. Put the ball in the net once but it counts as two goals ? I think we can both agree (as a speedway fan looking at football), that is just stupid. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,286 Posted May 10, 2017 The problem with your view is that it looks at speedway solely through the eyes of a football fan. You can't do that and have to judge each sport on its own merits and make a decision as to whether the rules it has are reasonable given the conditions that exist. Imagine having a rule in speedway where certain riders were only allowed on certain parts of the track and dependent on where the opposition were. That would be bloody ridiculous; in football its called offside. My real point is that you simply can't make a judgement about speedway's regulations based upon football and vice versa. They are so totally different any attempt to do so would be ludicrous. A football fan might find guests, rider replacement and tactical rides bizarre, but that is because the concept is totally alien to them. There are sound reasons why speedway has all three and has had them for half a century. You're right about the away goals rule and I also think your comparison is correct. The fact is, though, is that football has a regulation by which one goal counts as two. Put the ball in the net once but it counts as two goals ? I think we can both agree (as a speedway fan looking at football), that is just stupid. There are many sports that include "gimmicks" to enliven or enhance the entertainment value. . Power plays, free hits, and bonus points for runs scored/wickets taken in Cricket. Rugby has its bonus points for tries. Three point scores in basketball and even horse racing has subjective weight control to provide a more 'level' playing field.... All are decreed as 'acceptable' mainly because everyone can use them to their advantage... The issue with Speedways 'joker' is it rewards a losing performance (lose a race and score more than the winner?!) and invariably will end up, the vast majority of time, only positively impacting one team with the other not having a chance to use it... Maybe if it has to stay, it should be open to both teams at any time as a true tactical move from the team managers? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,246 Posted May 10, 2017 Its football, how could it be interesting? ...like it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted May 10, 2017 There are many sports that include "gimmicks" to enliven or enhance the entertainment value. . Power plays, free hits, and bonus points for runs scored/wickets taken in Cricket. Rugby has its bonus points for tries. Three point scores in basketball and even horse racing has subjective weight control to provide a more 'level' playing field.... All are decreed as 'acceptable' mainly because everyone can use them to their advantage... The issue with Speedways 'joker' is it rewards a losing performance (lose a race and score more than the winner?!) and invariably will end up, the vast majority of time, only positively impacting one team with the other not having a chance to use it... Maybe if it has to stay, it should be open to both teams at any time as a true tactical move from the team managers? I 'Liked' your Post because I agree with nearly all of it. At least your suggestion would make it fairer. How would it work though? Would you still need to be a certain number of Points behind in order to use it? If you were in front - would you still be able to use it - if so - when? Or could both Team Managers use it at a time to suit themselves? I still believe that the best thing would be to scrap theTactical Ride (and Tactical Substitutes) altogether though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,286 Posted May 10, 2017 I 'Liked' your Post because I agree with nearly all of it. At least your suggestion would make it fairer. How would it work though? Would you still need to be a certain number of Points behind in order to use it? If you were in front - would you still be able to use it - if so - when? Or could both Team Managers use it at a time to suit themselves? I still believe that the best thing would be to scrap theTactical Ride (and Tactical Substitutes) altogether though. For me, no rules re when you can use one or maybe two tacticals.. Programmed riders or a reserve replacement can take the 'joker', one only per rider... Team managers will have to pick the right race(s). Could be heat one, could be fifteen could be any... If nothing else, it would stop teams deliberately not winning races to prevent or allow a joker heat.. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tigerowl 630 Posted May 10, 2017 I'm not looking at the situation through the eyes of a football fan. I'm looking at it through the eyes of a sports fan who might be tempted to try speedway. Crowds are dwindling and the rules are alienating some die hard fans who have had enough. New fans need to be attracted for the sport to survive and for that to happen speedway needs to be entertaining, value for money, well presented and credible. It is occasionally entertaining, occasionally value for money, rarely well presented and totally without credibility at the moment. 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boz 316 Posted May 25, 2017 Interesting comments from Redcar promoter Kevin Keay on the radio last night - crowds up 20% at Redcar this season (helps having a competitive team!) 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mickthemuppet 976 Posted May 25, 2017 There are many sports that include "gimmicks" to enliven or enhance the entertainment value. . Power plays, free hits, and bonus points for runs scored/wickets taken in Cricket. Rugby has its bonus points for tries. Three point scores in basketball and even horse racing has subjective weight control to provide a more 'level' playing field.... All are decreed as 'acceptable' mainly because everyone can use them to their advantage... The issue with Speedways 'joker' is it rewards a losing performance (lose a race and score more than the winner?!) and invariably will end up, the vast majority of time, only positively impacting one team with the other not having a chance to use it... Maybe if it has to stay, it should be open to both teams at any time as a true tactical move from the team manaHow about C How about Cricket then when one teams scores more runs than their opposition yet lose Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skid Sprocket 243 Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) Interesting comments from Redcar promoter Kevin Keay on the radio last night - crowds up 20% at Redcar this season (helps having a competitive team!) And Kevin at the helm Edited May 25, 2017 by Skid Sprocket 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv 10,706 Posted May 25, 2017 How many is 20% though? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skid Sprocket 243 Posted May 25, 2017 How many is 20% though? A good reason to follow this link and vote Yes, http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=84163&hl Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv 10,706 Posted May 25, 2017 I have 👍 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
