The White Knight 9,039 Posted May 18, 2017 Guest riders are a 'necessary evil' only because we are brain washed into thinking so... It is the easy, lazy option, rather than working the team strength system into being fit for purpose. No Guests in Sweden and Poland? Not all Superstars either. So why? Because they race on the same night the vast proportion of the time so riders cannot be in two places at once.. Too easy over here as riders always available to step in... Denmark run five man teams using mainly Danish riders as enough of the required level riders are not available without paying foreigners to go over... Danish crowds are most similar I would say to Britain of the 'big four' League countries. So maybe this should be a template to be adapted.. One thing is for sure. Scott Nicholls helping Wolves into the play offs last year when they beat Poole and then his own team getting gubbed by Wolves six weeks later in the Final or Troy Batchelor starring for Poole a few years ago, before watching his Swindon team get hammered in the final by the Pirates, can never, ever, be seen as credible in anyway shape or form.... And if a professional team sports competition isn't credible then simply, why pay money to go and watch it? EXACTLY!!! Unfortunately these days Speedway and Credibility simply do not go together. I have supported Speedway since 1964 which is a total of 53 years. Now I do not attend - basically because of the 'Double Points' Rule. Doubling and Trebling up are also Rules that destroy the credibility of the once wonderful Sport of Speedway. It has already been mentioned regarding your relationship with your Team - that went out of the window years ago. We knew our Riders (they were 'our' Riders), their link with their Supporters was an important part of going to the Speedway. Riders became personal friends. Nowadays the Riders are so busy that they are gone, sometimes, before the Meeting has actually ended - I have attended one such Meeting. Credibility is a big thing with people nowadays - they don't like being conned. Unfortunately I do not know what the future holds for Speedway but I do wonder at times what will happen when all of us 'older' Supporters die off. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sharpandroid 88 Posted May 18, 2017 (edited) Guest riders in a team sport where the guests are on the opposing side in other meetings is an absolutely mind boggling idea. Stupidity of the highest order. A very good reason not to attend a local "team" event when a part of the "team" may be riding against you next week. Edited May 18, 2017 by sharpandroid 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moxey63 1,785 Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) Our kid, who I introduced to the sport in 1980, told me the other night that he felt the system was a strange one back in his first season, when PC and Mort missed numerous matches for our club, Belle Vue. It dawned on him quickly, as a 12 year-old, that it wasn't right seeing the likes of Dennis Sigalos, who he knew was a Hull rider, coming to the tapes in a Belle Vue bib. But to many it was easy to handle back then. But with half as many teams now, I don't know, but there seems twice as many guests. Surely less clubs should mean more riders. Or have the lower leagues not produced the men to fill the spots in the top flight? In the 80s, wasn't there the "Old Hands" rules, in which someone who had ridden so many times as a stand-in rider couldn't do it more than a set number of times? Has the attitude of allowing things to pass got us into this state? Edited May 19, 2017 by moxey63 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ch958 2,402 Posted May 19, 2017 it isn't an easy thing to solve tbh but with the introduction of credible promotion and relegation it HAS to be dealt with to go forward 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fromafar 10,497 Posted May 19, 2017 They have completely lost the plot on Double up/double down,missing riders and riders riding in 3 leagues ,they can't invent enough rules to cover it satisfactorily . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IronScorpion 1,414 Posted May 19, 2017 mikebv has come up with some good ideas which work in other leagues, so we must try to adapt some in our leagues. I am an advocate of trying to have 2 fixed nights for the Premiership as it worked before when Sky were in town for the old EL to race on Mondays & Wednesdays. The Championship then can ride on other nights minimising the use of guests. This is difficult due to teams not owning arenas but renting. 5 man & 6 man teams work abroad so could be tried here as not enough riders to go round if doubling up/down still to be used. If riders are unavailable then use the IRR facility where 1 rider above & any rider below can take their rides. A no8 to be named in case of further injuries during a meeting where he takes the reserves rides if a reserve will take his maximum of 7 rides. If 2 riders missing then a "guest" to be used who is not in a declared team in the subsequent league. Unattached or riders coming back from injury could then get rides. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sharpandroid 88 Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) Good example, Kyle Howarth riding EWR today for Scorpions, kicked their arses last week, best buddies this week, no thanks i'll stay at home. Edited May 21, 2017 by sharpandroid 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moxey63 1,785 Posted May 21, 2017 Good example, Kyle Howarth riding EWR today for Scorpions, kicked their arses last week, best buddies this week, no thanks i'll stay at home. I was talking about this 10 years ago. Everyone back then discredited me... but the free-for-all has worsened since and will soil speedway further in the years ahead if it isn't curtailed. It only takes that moment to hit home, where someone is riding for a team and against them shortly after. Why are they allowing this to happen? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trees 2,814 Posted May 21, 2017 Nothing wrong with guest riders, I want a full strength team to represent my club each time they race. Yes, sometimes r/r is OK but not always, depending on who is missing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,392 Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) Nothing wrong with guest riders, I want a full strength team to represent my club each time they race. Yes, sometimes r/r is OK but not always, depending on who is missing.Unfortunately if you want the Leagues to have any credibilty, then EVERYTHING is wrong with guest riders. .. It's supposedly a National Title in a Professional sport thats being rode for... To have any kudos to the title of 'Champion' then there has to be integrity and credibility. And from a fans perspective if no-one cares who wins a National Title in any sport, then why bother attending? In fact why bother holding the Championships in the first place? Bringing in 'ringers' to replace lesser competitor's isn't even allowed in my lads U14 football league as photo id's have been used this season which get checked by the ref before each game.. Yet in Speedway you can bring in a 'track expert' to replace your missing rider depending on where you are racing.. What happened (and was widely accepted) even just ten years ago is no longer viable in the modern world of instant global information... Years ago, you found out that your team, or the opponents, were missing their best riders so had guests when you got into the stadium. Nowadays you have all the team details a click of a button away, from the day before right up until the minute tapes are up.. In other words, plenty of time for the fans to decide whether the meeting has enough integrity or credibility for them to attend... Having a reduced number of team places, eight team Leagues, a fit for purpose RR operating model and a well planned fixture list would go a long, long way in eradicating the need for to 'borrow' guests from your competitors who are also trying to win the same competition.. No integrity? No credibilty? No kudos in winning a National title? Then let's be realistic and honest... Why actually bother running it as a team sport? Edited May 21, 2017 by mikebv 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulco 7,149 Posted May 21, 2017 Unfortunately if you want the Leagues to have any credibilty, then EVERYTHING is wrong with guest riders. .. It's supposedly a National Title in a Professional sport thats being rode for... To have any kudos to the title of 'Champion' then there has to be integrity and credibility. And from a fans perspective if no-one cares who wins a National Title in any sport, then why bother attending? In fact why bother holding the Championships in the first place? Bringing in 'ringers' to replace lesser competitor's isn't even allowed in my lads U14 football league as photo id's have been used this season which get checked by the ref before each game.. Yet in Speedway you can bring in a 'track expert' to replace your missing rider depending on where you are racing.. What happened (and was widely accepted) even just ten years ago is no longer viable in the modern world of instant global information... Years ago, you found out that your team, or the opponents, were missing their best riders so had guests when you got into the stadium. Nowadays you have all the team details a click of a button away, from the day before right up until the minute tapes are up.. In other words, plenty of time for the fans to decide whether the meeting has enough integrity or credibility for them to attend... Having a reduced number of team places, eight team Leagues, a fit for purpose RR operating model and a well planned fixture list would go a long, long way in eradicating the need for to 'borrow' guests from your competitors who are also trying to win the same competition.. No integrity? No credibilty? No kudos in winning? Then really, why bother? Cant argue with any of that , but what is the answer ? Squads have been mentioned , but isn't financially viable or is there sufficient riders willing to ride here . And teams get bad luck with injuries before we even go into the shambles the out of control doubling up has caused . If we do away with guests , then team speedway will be unworkable . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Third Man 2,218 Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) There have always been guests since I started going 50 years ago. However what was originally for a number 1 rider either injured or on international duty has now turned into an epidemic of guests for any reason. Also if each team had a guest or RR then they cancelled each other out and a number 8 came in, what happened to the number 8 (although now three teams could have the same number 8 I suppose) teams tried to make sure that they did not ride on a night where clashes occurred, now it doesn't seem to matter, just ride and have guests and or rr the one I cant get my head around is a guest for a rider who is riding for another team on the same night and having guests for a reserve when they are injured. same with rider replacement, used to be for an injured heat leader (by definition anyone of the top three in the averages) now again its for anyone except reserves, one of those is covered by a guest so isn't needed I want to pay to see seven man teams of riders affiliated to my team, again, what happened to a number 8 replacing a reserve, not a 6 man championship select team against another 6 man championship select team Edited May 21, 2017 by The Third Man 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulco 7,149 Posted May 21, 2017 There have always been guests since I started going 50 years ago. However what was originally for a number 1 rider either injured or on international duty has now turned into an epidemic of guests for any reason. Also if each team had a guest or RR then they cancelled each other out and a number 8 came in, what happened to the number 8 (although now three teams could have the same number 8 I suppose) the one I cant get my head around is a guest for a rider who is riding for another team on the same night and having guests for a reserve when they are injured. same with rider replacement, used to be for an injured heat leader (by definition anyone of the top three in the averages) now again its for anyone except reserves, one of those is covered by a guest so isn't needed I want to pay to see seven man teams of riders affiliated to my team, again, what happened to a number 8 replacing a reserve, not a 6 man championship select team against another 6 man championship select team Doubling up being as it is , means the guest thing just gets worse and worse . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,247 Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) There have always been guests since I started going 50 years ago. However what was originally for a number 1 rider either injured or on international duty has now turned into an epidemic of guests for any reason. Also if each team had a guest or RR then they cancelled each other out and a number 8 came in, what happened to the number 8 (although now three teams could have the same number 8 I suppose) teams tried to make sure that they did not ride on a night where clashes occurred, now it doesn't seem to matter, just ride and have guests and or rr the one I cant get my head around is a guest for a rider who is riding for another team on the same night and having guests for a reserve when they are injured. same with rider replacement, used to be for an injured heat leader (by definition anyone of the top three in the averages) now again its for anyone except reserves, one of those is covered by a guest so isn't needed I want to pay to see seven man teams of riders affiliated to my team, again, what happened to a number 8 replacing a reserve, not a 6 man championship select team against another 6 man championship select team As I've often commented when the British League Division Two was formed in 1968 teams often 'doubled up' with promotions competing in Division One. My team (Oxford) had promotional ties with both Eastbourne and Peterborough and would use riders from them when short handed. Riders who progressed thru' Eastbourne to Oxford/White City included Gordon Kennett, Malcolm Ballard, Trevor Geer, Steve Weatherley, Paul Gachet, Eric Dugard etc and from Peterborough John Davis and Richard Greer. Not perfect but at least the riders were familiar with the Cowley faithful and it's what initially Division Two was all about...generating youngsters for the future. Edited May 21, 2017 by steve roberts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted May 21, 2017 There have always been guests since I started going 50 years ago. However what was originally for a number 1 rider either injured or on international duty has now turned into an epidemic of guests for any reason. Also if each team had a guest or RR then they cancelled each other out and a number 8 came in, what happened to the number 8 (although now three teams could have the same number 8 I suppose) teams tried to make sure that they did not ride on a night where clashes occurred, now it doesn't seem to matter, just ride and have guests and or rr the one I cant get my head around is a guest for a rider who is riding for another team on the same night and having guests for a reserve when they are injured. same with rider replacement, used to be for an injured heat leader (by definition anyone of the top three in the averages) now again its for anyone except reserves, one of those is covered by a guest so isn't needed I want to pay to see seven man teams of riders affiliated to my team, again, what happened to a number 8 replacing a reserve, not a 6 man championship select team against another 6 man championship select team I don't think it is asking too much to have seven Riders per Team. By Team - I mean Riders who I can relate to, Riders who I can support. How the hell can you support a Team that has Riders who you were booing like mad last week and you are supposed to cheer on this week. British Speedway is rapidly becoming a Circus of people who can ride a Speedway Bike. People who drift from Track to Track selling their wares. They have no affection for, or affinity with, the Team? group of Riders that come together to ride in a particular Meeting. I think it is very sad that we are in this mess. One of the really special things about Speedway was the relationship between Riders and Supporters. Now that is gone - I ask - what do we really have left? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
