Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

[chunky 6,095]

53 minutes ago, ColinMills said:

yes correct....but when people say you have the best 16 in the world, just never been true

It is unlikely that you will ever get the complete Top 16, but the opportunities are at least there!

Steve

[ColinMills 1,728]

2 minutes ago, chunky said:

Actually, it doesn't.  The Eastern Bloc qualifiers guaranteed that a certain number (usually five) of Eastern Europeans (including some who weren't World-Final standard) would be riding in a World Final.  The current GP system provides opportunities for EVERYONE to qualify via the same channels (GP, and GP Challenge).  The wild cards are generally riders who are considered worthy of a place in the GP's, particularly those who deprived of a spot by misfortune (eg Dudek, Vaculik, and Zagar).  They are not riders who are in purely based on the fact that they live in Eastern Europe, but that they lost their places because of injury.

So, instead of basically preventing riders from qualifying, it is a second chance for riders who were unlucky.  It must be true that Madsen is in because of nationality, but according to everyone (I really don't know much about him), he is more than worthy of a place.  I would still have gone for Pedersen instead (and I don't like the guy), but although he may be past his best, he can still compete on the day (as we have seen), and he does add something (unlike some of the Continental qualifiers in the 70's and 80's).

Steve

surprised too about nicki missing out. probably more so because im sure he would get more bums on seats then zagar, but that doesn't make it the right reason

[chunky 6,095]

Just now, ColinMills said:

surprised too about nicki missing out. probably more so because im sure he would get more bums on seats then zagar, but that doesn't make it the right reason

I agree.  As I said, though, I believe that he is still worthy of a place; certainly more of a contender than a couple of the riders this year.  Having said that, if a rider qualifies by right, then good luck to them!

Steve

[waiheke1 4,295]

26 minutes ago, tyler42 said:

Funny that, because i'm still waiting for your comment earlier in the day about the world finals or are you like a politician. Just ignore the question and carry on?  

 

Thats a bit of a contradiction is it not, to what you have been saying all night about the The strengths of the GP series are so much fairer than a one off world final!!

Now you you think a one off meeting is the fairest way to decide the league championship! please make your mind up. 

I have enjoyed our debate. Good Night for now.

Is this the world final statement where you disputed the assertion thst world finals were won by riders nowhere near the best in the world?

Surely that Is a fact. 73 and 83 Are the obvious examples. 

But there are many others- Lee was never better than Jessup in 1980. Mauger wasn't best in the world in 79 (or 77). Havelock not in 92. 

It's hard to name a gp world champion who "got lucky". Logan and Holder are arguably the "worst" gp champs but to win over a series it is hardly just luck..m

[ColinMills 1,728]

7 minutes ago, waiheke1 said:

Is this the world final statement where you disputed the assertion thst world finals were won by riders nowhere near the best in the world?

Surely that Is a fact. 73 and 83 Are the obvious examples. 

But there are many others- Lee was never better than Jessup in 1980. Mauger wasn't best in the world in 79 (or 77). Havelock not in 92. 

It's hard to name a gp world champion who "got lucky". Logan and Holder are arguably the "worst" gp champs but to win over a series it is hardly just luck..m

just wonder what you view is about hancock? why such a long gap from 1st to 2nd world title? 

[tyler42 150]

2 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Is this the world final statement where you disputed the assertion thst world finals were won by riders nowhere near the best in the world?

Surely that Is a fact. 73 and 83 Are the obvious examples. 

But there are many others- Lee was never better than Jessup in 1980. Mauger wasn't best in the world in 79 (or 77). Havelock not in 92. 

It's hard to name a gp world champion who "got lucky". Logan and Holder are arguably the "worst" gp champs but to win over a series it is hardly just luck..m

Funny enough. If you were to have gone back a little, you would have seen i said the exact same thing about Jerzy Szczakiel and Egon Muller Being the two who i thought were shock winners. Other posters thought to differ. Saying both riders were tipped to win said finals. 

As for Jessup being better than Lee that year. Sure Jessup won the British final and Commonwealth final, but they were qualifying rounds. The final was all that counted.

Just like qualifying heats in GP's. It does not matter if you get 18 pts like Laguta did on Saturday. The final was the one that counted and TW won that even though he only scored 11 pts in the qualifying heats. 

Just to add, How many riders over the years have won a world final on just 11 pts? I know it does not matter because the GP system is what it is. Just like the one off world finals

Were what they were.

The list of world champions other than the two mentioned were all riders that were not shock winners. You say Havelock was not the best the year he won the final.

He won the British final, 3rd in the Commonwealth final he won the the Overseas final and lost in a run off to Per Jonsson in the world semi-final  and won the final on 14 pts.

That is a better record of qualification than Jessups in 1980, but you say Jessup should have won the 80 final and you question Havelock's Championship.

 

[tyler42 150]

3 hours ago, BWitcher said:

If you would actually read what posts said you might make a little more sense.

3 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Every argument they put forward is actually against them,  they just don't realise it.

They seem to think that because they 'enjoyed'  the old system it was therefore better in every aspect.

Reality is, like many, they don't like change and like things how they were. They'll also tell you that play offs are bad, who wants the excitement of a title being decided on one night, it should be over the season etc.

Go back and read the post again, I have said nothing about what I believe is the 'fairest' way to decide a league championship. 

I must apologise, I read that completely it wrong 

[iainb 5,018]

15 hours ago, tyler42 said:

I keep hearing that todays riders have so much more skill? It sure takes a lot of skill to hold the bike flat out on a slick track for 4 laps!. With a nice little air fence added for extra protection! Just look what happen at a recent GP when there is a bit of dirt on the track. They had there little riders meetings and demanded to have all the dirt scraped off. If they are so skilful, surely they can ride in any conditions? There is a thing called a throttle and it can go both ways! 

Tell that to Darcy Ward you sick man!

8 hours ago, chunky said:

The wild cards are generally riders who are considered worthy of a place in the GP's, particularly those who deprived of a spot by misfortune (eg Dudek, Vaculik, and Zagar). 

I wonder how many of the nominated wildcards over the years have gone on to win the world title... Or even rostrum? Most of the picks are done for financial reasons

8 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

But there are many others- Lee was never better than Jessup in 1980. Mauger wasn't best in the world in 79 (or 77). Havelock not in 92.

Havvy not the best in 92? You're joking right? 

Edited October 8, 2018 by iainb

[BWitcher 12,453]

5 minutes ago, iainb said:

 

I wonder how many of the nominated wildcards over the years have gone on to win the world title... Or even rostrum? Most of the picks are done for financial reasons

Havvy not the best in 92? You're joking right? 

I would have backed Nielsen, Ermolenko and Jonsson all to have finished above Havelock over a GP campaign.

As for wildcards winning a World title....

[Grachan 7,362]

7 minutes ago, iainb said:

Tell that to Darcy Ward you sick man!

I wonder how many of the nominated wildcards over the years have gone on to win the world title... Or even rostrum? Most of the picks are done for financial reasons

Havvy not the best in 92? You're joking right? 

Didn't Tai win as a wildcard first time round?

Havvy winning the World Title was probably the biggest shock result in my time at least. Much more so than Muller.

[waiheke1 4,295]

3 minutes ago, Grachan said:

Didn't Tai win as a wildcard first time round?

Havvy winning the World Title was probably the biggest shock result in my time at least. Much more so than Muller.

Yep. But in fairness havvy was closer to being the best rider in the world in 92 than Muller in 83, who was surely behind Lee,Carter,Morton,Sigalos,Sanders Nielsen,Gundersen - but was tipped as a potential champ due to the track.

[Grachan 7,362]

2 minutes ago, waiheke1 said:

Yep. But in fairness havvy was closer to being the best rider in the world in 92 than Muller in 83, who was surely behind Lee,Carter,Morton,Sigalos,Sanders Nielsen,Gundersen - but was tipped as a potential champ due to the track. 

Probably true, but his win was more of a surprise. There is a big difference from doing well in qualifiers than there is in actually winning the title.

Muller had already proved his championship mentality with Long Track wins. His win never surprised me one bit. What did surprise me, though, was the indignation from British fans afterwards as if a non-BL rider had no right to be World Champion.

[iainb 5,018]

21 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

I would have backed Nielsen, Ermolenko and Jonsson all to have finished above Havelock over a GP campaign.

As for wildcards winning a World title....

I watched Havvy in all of his qualifiers in 92 and he was easily the best in the world in 92 and it came as no surprise to me he won it

17 minutes ago, Grachan said:

Didn't Tai win as a wildcard first time round?

Havvy winning the World Title was probably the biggest shock result in my time at least. Much more so than Muller.

I think he did... But they have been handing out wild cards for around 20 years now and that's the only one that springs to mind. I think they have got it the wrong way around, it should be 3 wildcards and more quali places

Edited October 8, 2018 by iainb

[Skidder1 7,637]

Nice article and photo of Tai becoming 3 times World Champion in the Sun today. Not sure of any other national media coverage.

[BWitcher 12,453]

15 minutes ago, iainb said:

I watched Havvy in all of his qualifiers in 92 and he was easily the best in the world in 92 and it came as no surprise to me he won it

 

I watched the whole season and he was very good, but not the best in the world. He was nowhere near favorite for the World Final.

It's all well and good quoting British Finals and Commonwealth Finals but he doesn't race his main rivals there. In his World Semi he was beaten by Per Jonsson (first time he had met him), that on Havelocks home track.

A GP would take place around the world on different circuits where I categorically believe he wouldn't have kept up with Jonsson and Ermolenko and probably Nielsen (who did have a stinker in the Nordic Final). 

The final itself was also a heavily rain effected meeting.

With all that being said, he was a worthy champion and his form over the year was exemplary.

Edited October 8, 2018 by BWitcher